Lithium battery upgrade questions

[Centex]

Originally Posted by oldwave

I do have a question, you might be able to help in my mind for my expansion next fall. From what I understand the wfco charger section also powers the 12 volt side when there is shore power. If you disable that will the freedom xc also provide that power as well as charge the battery while on shore power ? Or am I not getting the logic of the wfco right ?

Not Dave but I'll answer as a 'test' of my understanding and see if he corrects me ...

The Freedom XC in a single 15.4” × 12” × 4” enclosure provides:

• All of the converting & charging functions of the OE WFCO (or WFCO with Wildkat upgrade) when connected to shore power; plus
• The function of a 2000W 12VDC>120VAC Inverter when not connected to shore power; plus
• The function of an Automatic Transfer Switch (to allow powering of selected multiple 120VAC outlets / 120VAC devices whether connected to shore power or not)

The Freedom XC does not provide:

• The Main AC distribution/breaker panel which is incorporated in the WFCO power center
• The DC distribution/fuse panel which is incorporated in the WFCO power center

Dave's installation is using the Main AC and DC distribution panels in the retained WFCO power center to meet those needs by wiring the Freedom XC directly to those panels in the WFCO enclosure.

>>
As an aside, IF one wanted to completely remove the WFCO power center when installing the Freedom XC there are separate AC and DC distribution panels available which can meet those needs; that's the approach I'll be taking with my Freedom XC install, using a 'split bus' AC panel offered by Progressive Dynamics that provides the functions of both Main AC and Inverter Sub-Panel AC distribution and breakers in one panel. It's functionally the same as Dave's approach, just affords a different 'component packaging arrangement' in the available space.

[oldwave]

Originally Posted by Centex

Not Dave but I'll answer as a 'test' of my understanding and see if he corrects me ...

The Freedom XC in a single 15.4” × 12” × 4” enclosure provides:

• All of the converting & charging functions of the OE WFCO (or WFCO with Wildkat upgrade) when connected to shore power; plus
• The function of a 2000W 12VDC>120VAC Inverter when not connected to shore power; plus
• The function of an Automatic Transfer Switch (to allow powering of selected multiple 120VAC outlets / 120VAC devices whether connected to shore power or not)

The Freedom XC does not provide:

• The Main AC distribution/breaker panel which is incorporated in the WFCO power center
• The DC distribution/fuse panel which is incorporated in the WFCO power center

Dave's installation is using the Main AC and DC distribution panels in the retained WFCO power center to meet those needs by wiring the Freedom XC directly to those panels in the WFCO enclosure.

>>
As an aside, IF one wanted to completely remove the WFCO power center when installing the Freedom XC there are separate AC and DC distribution panels available which can meet those needs; that's the approach I'll be taking with my Freedom XC install, using a 'split bus' AC panel offered by Progressive Dynamics that provides the functions of both Main AC and Inverter Sub-Panel AC distribution and breakers in one panel. It's functionally the same as Dave's approach, just affords a different 'component packaging arrangement' in the available space.

Ok that’s what I thought, just unclear how it gets wired, is the charger function connected directly the battery then to the wfco or are there two cables? I notice the wfco connects to the dc distribution and also to the battery, given the converter charger is at the battery now, I’m unsure how it would feed the wfco. Thanks for illuminating my understanding.

[Centex]

Originally Posted by oldwave

Ok that’s what I thought, just unclear how it gets wired, is the charger function connected directly the battery then to the wfco or are there two cables? I notice the wfco connects to the dc distribution and also to the battery, given the converter charger is at the battery now, I’m unsure how it would feed the wfco. Thanks for illuminating my understanding.

With apology, my statement "...by wiring the Freedom XC directly to those panels in the WFCO enclosure" was incorrect, thereby confusing

Dave's wiring diagram is in this post (he's described a few later tweaks to the AC distribution but those don't bear on your question).

Here's a figure isolating only the DC distribution of the OE WFCO system and Dave's Freedom XC system for comparison, hopefully worth 1000 words and clarifying the charging and DC device power wiring aspect of each.

This figure ignores the Freedom XC 12VDC>120VAC Inverter function which is not present in the OE WFCO system, but it's that high-current Inverter function which prompts wiring the Freedom XC to the battery rather than via the DC distribution panel as with the OE system (very high current flows from the battery to the Freedom XC via the one wire shown in the figure when not connected to shore power and using the Inverter function to power 120VAC devices). There is only one DC connection and cable for both DC input and output on the Freedom XC because DC input and output never occur simultaneously.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by oldwave

... just unclear how it gets wired, is the charger function connected directly the battery then to the wfco or are there two cables? I notice the wfco connects to the dc distribution and also to the battery, given the converter charger is at the battery now, I’m unsure how it would feed the wfco.

Charging and converting for DC circuits are not really two separate functions: there's just one DC output from any converter/charger. As long as there is a connected wiring path between the battery and the DC distribution panel (in the WFCO Power Center), a charger/converter output connected anywhere along that path provides both functions.

[oldwave]

Originally Posted by Centex

With apology, my statement "...by wiring the Freedom XC directly to those panels in the WFCO enclosure" was incorrect, thereby confusing

Dave's wiring diagram is in this post (he's described a few later tweaks to the AC distribution but those don't bear on your question).

Here's a figure isolating only the DC distribution of the OE WFCO system and Dave's Freedom XC system for comparison, hopefully worth 1000 words and clarifying the charging and DC device power wiring aspect of each.

This figure ignores the Freedom XC 12VDC>120VAC Inverter function which is not present in the OE WFCO system, but it's that high-current Inverter function which prompts wiring the Freedom XC to the battery rather than via the DC distribution panel as with the OE system (very high current flows from the battery to the Freedom XC via the one wire shown in the figure when not connected to shore power and using the Inverter function to power 120VAC devices). There is only one DC connection and cable for both DC input and output on the Freedom XC because DC input and output never occur simultaneously.

Thank you that’s much clearer. Now I get it.

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

Charging and converting for DC circuits are not really two separate functions: there's just one DC output from any converter/charger. As long as there is a connected wiring path between the battery and the DC distribution panel (in the WFCO Power Center), a charger/converter output connected anywhere along that path provides both functions.

That was going to be my one clarification...the Xantrex unit is just a charger in a sense because I must have a battery connected at all times to have 12V power. The battery is the buffer or storage tank of electrons between the charger and the loads. With the stock design you can throw the battery disconnect switch or remove the battery and still have 12V power feeding the DC board via the WFCO when on shore power. You essentially have a 12V power source on both sides of the battery disconnect. I can’t do this with my design but I really don’t see why that is really needed anyway.

[oldwave]

Originally Posted by rubicon327

That was going to be my one clarification...the Xantrex unit is just a charger in a sense because I must have a battery connected at all times to have 12V power. The battery is the buffer or storage tank of electrons between the charger and the loads. With the stock design you can throw the battery disconnect switch or remove the battery and still have 12V power feeding the DC board via the WFCO. You essentially have a 12V power source on both sides of the battery disconnect. I can’t do this with my design but I really don’t see why that is really needed anyway.

I see, so if I wanted to keep that design I could us a xantrex x with the charge function an use a stock wfco charger or better yet the progressive designs up grade?

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by oldwave

I see, so if I wanted to keep that design I could us a xantrex x with the charge function an use a stock wfco charger or better yet the progressive designs up grade?

Yes, but I think you meant to say without the charge function. The Xantrex Freedom “X” is an inverter and transfer switch. You could wire it just like my diagram but leave the stock WFCO or upgraded Progressive Dynamics converter/charger section active. I went with the Freedom “XC” because it has an 80A charger that can be adjusted in 5A increments. It will charge my 400AH lithium battery faster. It uses the same big 4/0 wires that take DC current from the battery for the inverter functionality for the charging of the battery when on shore power. It also has what Xantrex calls Power Share - “It prioritizes AC loads by reducing the charge current and maintaining the total input current to less than the breaker setting”. So in essence it passes through all the power necessary to meet the instantaneous AC loads and uses the remainder to charge the battery. This is highly variable and the unit will automatically adjust. The WFCO charger has a fixed output with no way of controlling it. That can be problematic if say you want to run an A/C unit off a small generator and are already on the edge. Generator may drop on overload. With the Xantrex it would prioritize the air conditioner and use any remaining current to charge the battery.

[rubicon327]

Decided as part of the lithium upgrade project to install a small built-in electric heater. ThIs makes it easier to maintain a minimum trailer temp (heater range is 40F - 86F) to keep the lithium battery happy when plugged in during the winter. Don’t want to constantly run propane or put too many hours on the heat pump compressor. Found the perfect heater which is a Cadet EnergyPlus model. It’s 1000W with a variable fan speed and built-in digital thermostat. This will be better than setting a heater on the floor that is in the way and can be knocked over. I easily framed the opening out with some scrap wood laying around. On the 19 the unit fit perfectly on the rear edge of the passenger side dinette bench front face. No other area in the trailer was suitable. The rough cutout is 10-1/8” x 8 “. Overall grille is 12”H x 9”W. It only protrudes into the cabinet 3”. Will wire it up to one of my spare 15A breakers. Excuse the mess. Redoing the vinyl in the dinette seat area and didn’t clean up before the pictures.

Please note this does not meet the recommended 4.5” clearance from floor. I’m not worried because the electric element is up at the top if the housing.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Cadet-En...63TW/206750445

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by rubicon327

With the stock design you can throw the battery disconnect switch or remove the battery and still have 12V power feeding the DC board via the WFCO when on shore power. You essentially have a 12V power source on both sides of the battery disconnect. I can’t do this with my design but I really don’t see why that is really needed anyway.

It isn't needed, but you might consider opening a switch between the DC supplies and using the Xantrex to charge the battery (only) while using the PD to carry the 12V loads (only). That way, if you set the PD to a desirable voltage (perhaps the traditional 13.2 V), you can have effective LFP battery charging and voltage that doesn't cause problems for sensitive equipment at the same time.

[oldwave]

Originally Posted by rubicon327

Yes, but I think you meant to say without the charge function. The Xantrex Freedom “X” is an inverter and transfer switch. You could wire it just like my diagram but leave the stock WFCO or upgraded Progressive Dynamics converter/charger section active. I went with the Freedom “XC” because it has an 80A charger that can be adjusted in 5A increments. It will charge my 400AH lithium battery faster. It uses the same big 4/0 wires that take DC current from the battery for the inverter functionality for the charging of the battery when on shore power. It also has what Xantrex calls Power Share - “It prioritizes AC loads by reducing the charge current and maintaining the total input current to less than the breaker setting”. So in essence it passes through all the power necessary to meet the instantaneous AC loads and uses the remainder to charge the battery. This is highly variable and the unit will automatically adjust. The WFCO charger has a fixed output with no way of controlling it. That can be problematic if say you want to run an A/C unit off a small generator and are already on the edge. Generator may drop on overload. With the Xantrex it would prioritize the air conditioner and use any remaining current to charge the battery.

Right that’s what I meant as I was looking at their catalog.
My camping is mostly hook ups with some off grid planned in the future. Doesn’t the PD upgrade from the wfco charger improve that ? I also see PD has a lithium charger for an upgrade.

I do like the Freedom X has the 30 amp transfer switch unlike progressive dynamics or the go power which are limited to 20 amps.

However, anyone had experience with the wfco transfer switch that clips on the power distribution module? There’s room on my install for it to fit. Is this the stockmts that escape uses ?

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

It isn't needed, but you might consider opening a switch between the DC supplies and using the Xantrex to charge the battery (only) while using the PD to carry the 12V loads (only). That way, if you set the PD to a desirable voltage (perhaps the traditional 13.2 V), you can have effective LFP battery charging and voltage that doesn't cause problems for sensitive equipment at the same time.

That is an interesting idea but if the Xantrex Freedom was going to be set for 14.4-14.6V max for the lithium is there really an advantage though? I’m told when I move the jumper on the PD unit it goes to a fixed 14.6V. If I don’t move the jumper would the PD unit stay in the storage mode of 13.2V if it does not detect a connected battery in need of charging? If I opened the switch between them (which would be my battery disconnect) I would then need to move my DC-DC charger connection to the battery side of the switch or it won’t charge the lithium while driving. Also when there is no shore power I would need to switch positions of the switch to get 12V power to the DC distribution board from the battery. This seems kind of clunky versus just leaving the switch in a single position.

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by oldwave

However, anyone had experience with the wfco transfer switch that clips on the power distribution module? There’s room on my install for it to fit. Is this the stockmts that escape uses ?

I did notice most inverter/transfer switch combo units have the TS limited to 20A. Not sure why. No direct experience but the WFCO T-30 transfer switch is what Escape uses. Haven’t heard about any issues.

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by rubicon327

Also when there is no shore power I would need to switch positions of the switch to get 12V power to the DC distribution board from the battery. This seems kind of clunky versus just leaving the switch in a single position.

As soon as that switch makes the DC distribution side is then subjected to the nominal battery voltage anyhow. No higher than I have now. No equalization at higher voltages is done with lithium so that’s not an issue.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by rubicon327

That is an interesting idea but if the Xantrex Freedom was going to be set for 14.4-14.6V max for the lithium is there really an advantage though?

Yes - 14.4 V is too much. My Atwood furnace certainly doesn't like the highest of charging voltages, even in my lead-acid PD-charged system.

Originally Posted by rubicon327

I’m told when I move the jumper on the PD unit it goes to a fixed 14.6V. If I don’t move the jumper would the PD unit stay in the storage mode of 13.2V if it does not detect a connected battery in need of charging?

The fixed 14.6 V is the default for their lithium line, but it is supposed to be adjustable. Yes, it is supposed to go the float voltage without a battery, which is presumably based on no voltage being present when the charger/converter is first turned on; it would be better if there is some way to lock it in float mode.

Originally Posted by rubicon327

If I opened the switch between them (which would be my battery disconnect) I would then need to move my DC-DC charger connection to the battery side of the switch or it won’t charge the lithium while driving.

Yes.

Originally Posted by rubicon327

Also when there is no shore power I would need to switch positions of the switch to get 12V power to the DC distribution board from the battery. This seems kind of clunky versus just leaving the switch in a single position.

Yes, but if that's too awkward the fix is a relay - normally closed, opening when shore power appears.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by rubicon327

As soon as that switch makes the DC distribution side is then subjected to the nominal battery voltage anyhow. No higher than I have now. No equalization at higher voltages is done with lithium so that’s not an issue.

Even without equalization, the normal upper limit of lithium charging voltage is excessive. Of course the DC distribution side sees battery voltage when shore power is disconnected, but that's just battery voltage (not charging) so it's not as bad (although even the fully charge LiFePO4 4-cell voltage is higher than ideal).

[oldwave]

One other question for the electrical experts, if I follow the wfco guidelines, which apparently Escape doesn’t and even some very knowledgeable members, a 20 amp subpanel is what should be installed from the inverter / transfer switch. 1 can the microwave be safely run from that subpanel at 20 amps ? If I ignore the 20 amp limit and use a 30 amp subpanel what are the dangers beside ignoring code?
My off grid electric would be modest, but I would like the microwave and prefer not to retire the wfco with a different pane.

[gbaglo]

They follow this code. Canadian Standards Association.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by oldwave

can the microwave be safely run from that subpanel at 20 amps ?

Yes - a microwave oven only needs a 15 amp circuit. Of course you can't run much else at the same time with only 20 amps, but that may not be a problem.

[oldwave]

Originally Posted by gbaglo

They follow this code. Canadian Standards Association.

Got it, but the WFCO only allows 20 amp branch circuits. So I am confused by the 30 amp branch circuits and transfer switch. Is this a problem or not ?