AGM Battery Troubles

[Nindy]

After exactly five years with my original flooded batteries I switched to Lifeline AGM. Fit perfectly in my boxes (I have a 17B with the batteries on the back bumper).

These first AGMs lasted about 3 years until one of them was stolen a year ago and I had to purchase two new ones! As mentioned, they are expensive.

I am struggling with the new ones but they are still under full replacement warranty.

Sometimes my solar charger goes completely blank with them but most of the time shows them fully charged. They don't hold up to use if, for instance, I'm running the water pump for any length of time. I first noticed problems when I started my fridge on propane and came back about 6 hours later to a trailer where there wasn't even enough juice to keep a light on.

This hasn't been a problem since at this point I'm just traveling 2.5 hours at a time to get to my property to watch my house being built and I plug into electricity there and all is fine.

I've been to an RV repair shop and they say my solar charge controller is fine. I have taken the batteries to three different places and I feel like no one is doing a true load test. Two said they failed and one said they are fine. One said they were inappropriate choices for a trailer and I should get marine batteries.

I have talked to Inverters R Us, from whom I purchased, and Lifeline, who have both been very helpful. Lifeline says they are just sulphated and a conditioning charge should fix that. So I took them to a Battery Outfitters location with the instructions from Lifeline and asked that they follow them precisely for warranty purposes. I had no faith that they would and after picking them up and using them last week they behave no differently. They seemed a bit clueless but at least didn't charge me.

If I can't get these working properly I may just go back to flooded batteries. I guess I will try to find a more experienced battery store. Any ideas?

[Perry Butler]

Originally Posted by Nindy

After exactly five years with my original flooded batteries I switched to Lifeline AGM. Fit perfectly in my boxes (I have a 17B with the batteries on the back bumper).

These first AGMs lasted about 3 years until one of them was stolen a year ago and I had to purchase two new ones! As mentioned, they are expensive.

I am struggling with the new ones but they are still under full replacement warranty.

Sometimes my solar charger goes completely blank with them but most of the time shows them fully charged. They don't hold up to use if, for instance, I'm running the water pump for any length of time. I first noticed problems when I started my fridge on propane and came back about 6 hours later to a trailer where there wasn't even enough juice to keep a light on.

This hasn't been a problem since at this point I'm just traveling 2.5 hours at a time to get to my property to watch my house being built and I plug into electricity there and all is fine.

I've been to an RV repair shop and they say my solar charge controller is fine. I have taken the batteries to three different places and I feel like no one is doing a true load test. Two said they failed and one said they are fine. One said they were inappropriate choices for a trailer and I should get marine batteries.

I have talked to Inverters R Us, from whom I purchased, and Lifeline, who have both been very helpful. Lifeline says they are just sulphated and a conditioning charge should fix that. So I took them to a Battery Outfitters location with the instructions from Lifeline and asked that they follow them precisely for warranty purposes. I had no faith that they would and after picking them up and using them last week they behave no differently. They seemed a bit clueless but at least didn't charge me.

If I can't get these working properly I may just go back to flooded batteries. I guess I will try to find a more experienced battery store. Any ideas?

There is no perfect battery, so occasionally a problem occurs.

My friends desulfated their Lifeline AGMs once a month. They had them in their camper for seven years and they are currently still working at their daughter's cabin.

They may have been damaged at some point in the manufacture or your use. Who knows! If they're under warranty ask for new batteries. If those have the same problems, you have something going on in your camper, perhaps as simple as a loose wire (and that is hard to diagnose).

Food for thought,

Perry

[alanmalk]

If - you are comfortable with a multi-meter, and, if you have plenty of time, and if you are willing to post many times to this forum, we (the collective knowledge) may be able to pinpoint the real issue. It won't be easy - the first guess is rarely the correct one. You will become a regular Sherlock Holmes of electricity when we solve this.

[Nindy]

Thanks Perry and Alan. I'll get around to addressing this soon. I have a lot going on with the house right now.

One thing going on in the trailer is an overhead light where one side of it comes on when it's turned off. The first time it did that was about four years ago when my son was camping with me and sleeping on the top bunk. I had forgotten about it until he was back with me last week and the light came on again! Had to tape something over it since it was right above him.

During the day it would be off and then come on later as it got colder at night so I wondered if it had something to do with the cold. But four years ago it was doing it in August.

I'm reading that's possibly a ground wire problem. Ugh. I'm probably just going to have to take it somewhere and as my late husband used to say, "throw some money at the problem".

[alanmalk]

Don't start tossing $$$ quite yet. LED lights are sensitive to moisture. If any moisture has condensed in the lamp, especially near the switch, they can glow enough to be annoying at night. I'm proof of that...

Think "hair dryer"!


(One led lamp running when it is not supposed to is not likely to drain the batteries. I intentionally have a red LED running 24/7 in the bathroom for a night light.)

[John in Santa Cruz]

I've had the switch fail on one of those dual lights. easy to replace.

this is the single style used in my 2014,
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B086H8SG3Q
the double one isa L09-0111-NW, but I'm not finding on Amazon right now.
ok, here. https://www.bigrigchromeshop.com/led...-p-578043.html
or
https://www.woodysaccessories.com/in...ng/l09-0111-nw

btw, these are about 0.28 amps, 3.6 watts, i believe that is on high with both lamps running

[HABBERDABBER]

You errant LED light does imply a wonky switch. I'd start there. The ground issue you mention may just require popping off the lamp lens, wiggling the ground wire and its connection spot that's likely connected to a metal base, and hoping that helps. Some manual pressure with a tool to get a better or tighter contact of the ground could help.

August can be humid, and it's worth a blow dry with a hair dryer.

Your AGM battery issue is not apparent. It could be a multitude of minor things, a more significant one or actual battery failure. Battery failure is, to me, the MOST UNLIKELY culprit. That said, ya never know. There's a multitude of trouble shooting actions you or somebody could do. One action is to charge the batteries on an AGM rated charger, let them sit for a spell, and check voltage. Anything below 12V after a day or 2 will indicate battery failure. Anything much above that suggests they're OK.

All I can say is..... work the problem, as your time allows. Others have suggested first efforts, and keep asking questions and providing details. Maybe, just maybe,
all these quirks can be remedied...remotely via the forum.

I've had my porch light switch fail. They're all mostly cheesy junk, but the same cheesy replacement is easily obtained and cheap.

Having a trailer can be a lot of work!

bon chance,

[Nindy]

Thank you all for the suggestions. I’ll keep at it. I sort of have the time right now. Not planning any big travel for the winter or until my house is done and I can do day trips to my property now that I’ve moved.

[alanmalk]

As a starting point: Are your batteries 6V each, or a pair of 12V?
And do you have, or can borrow, a multi-meter?

[Nindy]

Originally Posted by alanmalk

As a starting point: Are your batteries 6V each, or a pair of 12V?
And do you have, or can borrow, a multi-meter?

Two 6V and yes, I have a multimeter.

[alanmalk]

Originally Posted by Nindy

Two 6V and yes, I have a multimeter.

If you have the opportunity, try this simple test for starters.

Charge the batteries however you like, then disconnect the batteries from the trailer, then measure the voltage now, and measure it again in a few days. That will give a good indication of SOC (State Of Charge) and whether or not they have excessive self-discharge. (You are measuring each battery individually, so the readings will be close to 6 Volts.)

To totally disconnect, find any one post (out of the 4) that has only 1 wire attached and disconnect it. (Typically the heavy wire going between the two 6 Volt batteries.) Do not tow your trailer while batteries are disconnected because the emergency brakes will not function.

[HABBERDABBER]

Sound advice and procedure in the above post. I've read that AGM tend to need an AGM type charger as overvoltage is tough on them.

Ever so possibly, charging your AGM's could be the source of your problem if you are using the stock ETI charger.

As in Battery University.
https://batteryuniversity.com/article/bu-201-how-does-the-lead-acid-battery-work"

Unlike the flooded, the sealed lead acid battery is designed with a low over-voltage potential to prohibit the battery from reaching its gas-generating potential during charge. Excess charging causes gassing, venting and subsequent water depletion and dry-out. Consequently, gel, and in part also AGM, cannot be charged to their full potential and the charge voltage limit must be set lower than that of a flooded. This also applies to the float charge on full charge. In respect to charging, the gel and AGM are no direct replacements for the flooded type. If no designated charger is available for AGM with lower voltage settings, disconnect the charger after 24 hours of charge. This prevents gassing due to a float voltage that is set too hig"

Others hopefully will reply as to the suitability of the ETI supplied charger system in your 2015 E17.

[alanmalk]

Originally Posted by Perry Butler

...

My friends desulfated their Lifeline AGMs once a month.
...

I used a set of 12 Volt AGMs in parallel in the trailer for roughly 7 years, and still running fairly well when I succumbed to the call of Lithium. Stock ETI solar and converter, set to no equalization, and no add-ons like shunts, etc. So my thinking is that it is unlikely - but not impossible, of course - that ETI equipment caused the failure.

The big exception could be a charger that lost its way and constantly over (or under) charges. That should be easy to rule out - or in - with the multimeter.


Remember, the First Rule Of Thumb: Test the easy stuff first.

[Read Newman]

thanks for posting the lights I'm going to do the upgrade with these!

[Bill and Earline]

Nindy,
I’m guessing your trailer is a 2014, as is ours. When I switched from flooded 6’s to AGM 6’s, I changed the charge setting on the ETI equipment to AGM.
I don’t remember exactly what I had to do, but the original manual specified the easy change.
Hope this info isn’t too late.
Bill

[John in Santa Cruz]

Originally Posted by Bill and Earline

Nindy,
I’m guessing your trailer is a 2014, as is ours. When I switched from flooded 6’s to AGM 6’s, I changed the charge setting on the ETI equipment to AGM.
I don’t remember exactly what I had to do, but the original manual specified the easy change.
Hope this info isn’t too late.
Bill

My 21 is a 2014, there were no such settings afaik. But I ended up going with lithium and replaced the power converter and solar controller as well as swapping the 160w factory solar panel for a 360W that needed a MPPT controller anyways. I removed the original battery case and mounted the lighter LFP batts in the back of the curbside bench so there was more storage space under said curbside bench....

[C&G in FL]

Originally Posted by Bill and Earline

Nindy,
I’m guessing your trailer is a 2014, as is ours. When I switched from flooded 6’s to AGM 6’s, I changed the charge setting on the ETI equipment to AGM.
I don’t remember exactly what I had to do, but the original manual specified the easy change.
Hope this info isn’t too late.
Bill

Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz

My 21 is a 2014, there were no such settings afaik. But I ended up going with lithium and replaced the power converter and solar controller as well as swapping the 160w factory solar panel for a 360W that needed a MPPT controller anyways. I removed the original battery case and mounted the lighter LFP batts in the back of the curbside bench so there was more storage space under said curbside bench....

John, I think Bill was referring to changing dip switches on the solar charge controller to appropriate settings for AGM batteries. I know I did when I switched to AGMs, also Lifelines. Lifeline makes an excellent battery, but under boost charging conditions, typically the converter, they can off-gas minor amounts of hydrogen, enough to make a nearby propane detector “scream its little lungs out.” I have posted in the past about this problem so you don’t have to ask me “how I know!”

Also, AGM batteries ARE acid containing batteries just like FLA batteries and can be damaged by drawing them down below 50%. So I would ask Linda, the OP, did you ever draw them down below 50%. If you have never done so, they should be working fine. I wouldn’t trust the so-called battery experts that told you they failed load tests or that you need marine batteries; it sounds like they are a bunch of morons to me. As someone has suggested, check the easy things first. And if you still have the ETI installed WFCO converter and it turn out from a meter check that it is not putting out adequate voltage, do not replace it with another WFCO unit. Instead, go online to Best Converter and contact Randy. Get the Progressive Dynamics exact replacement that is lithium compatible in case you ever want to go lithium.

I do not think going back to FLA batteries will solve the issue. I suspect something else is causing your problem.

[alanmalk]

Originally Posted by C&G in FL

...
Also, AGM batteries ARE acid containing batteries just like FLA batteries and can be damaged by drawing them down below 50%. So I would ask Linda, the OP, did you ever draw them down below 50%. If you have never done so, they should be working fine.
...

Based on personal experience(s) I would argue that the doom & gloom of drawing down batteries as described above is a little over stated.

In one sense every small discharge will do some damage, which is why batteries have a "cycle count". But deep cycle AGM batteries are designed to go low and to recover most of the original capacity when recharged. Reliable sources ( read - saw on the internet but not going to look for exact quotes this morning) indicate that the real damage comes from not doing a recharge ASAP.

My personal experience: For a year or so had a job where taking a bus to work in the early AM was the rule. But on arriving at the bus stop in a hurry, the sun was coming up. Did I remember to turn off my headlights every time? Hmmm, lost count of how many times I came back at 5 PM only to find a totally flattened battery. And this battery was a standard, rather cheap, big box brand of flooded lead/acid. But it recovered, mostly, after a drive around town, until the next memory failure. So, a high quality, deep cycle AGM should recover from this form of abuse if kept to a minimum and recharged quickly. Its not instant death.

[C&G in FL]

Originally Posted by alanmalk

Based on personal experience(s) I would argue that the doom & gloom of drawing down batteries as described above is a little over stated.

In one sense every small discharge will do some damage, which is why batteries have a "cycle count". But deep cycle AGM batteries are designed to go low and to recover most of the original capacity when recharged. Reliable sources ( read - saw on the internet but not going to look for exact quotes this morning) indicate that the real damage comes from not doing a recharge ASAP.

My personal experience: For a year or so had a job where taking a bus to work in the early AM was the rule. But on arriving at the bus stop in a hurry, the sun was coming up. Did I remember to turn off my headlights every time? Hmmm, lost count of how many times I came back at 5 PM only to find a totally flattened battery. And this battery was a standard, rather cheap, big box brand of flooded lead/acid. But it recovered, mostly, after a drive around town, until the next memory failure. So, a high quality, deep cycle AGM should recover from this form of abuse if kept to a minimum and recharged quickly. Its not instant death.

Alan, while I cannot contest your experience (because YMMV), my personal experience with any battery containing acid, flooded or glass mat differs from yours. Ford puts AGMs in the F-150. I typically have to replace the truck’s battery every 3 years. Perhaps that is a consequence of Florida’s excessively hot summer weather. Heat, not cold, kills batteries. When I lived in New Hampshire, battery failure was a less common occurrence. Since moving to Florida, I have had two almost new (Interstate branded) lawn tractor batteries get accidentally discharged to the point that none of my myriad of battery chargers will charge them; the chargers will only display a fault condition. Additionally, I had a Scamp for three years that on only one occasion, the FLA battery got discharged to 10.1 volts. Within a couple of hours, it was plugged into shore power but, even though quickly recharged, it was never the same after that and ultimately I replaced it. As a result, every one of my batteries in vehicles or lawn equipment is connected to a desulfating trickle charger if they are not used daily or almost daily. Doing so has resulted in longer life and less frequent failure/death.

[MrLynn]

Originally Posted by C&G in FL

. . . As a result, every one of my batteries in vehicles or lawn equipment is connected to a desulfating trickle charger if they are not used daily or almost daily. Doing so has resulted in longer life and less frequent failure/death.

I keep my snowblower on a NOCO Genius Battery Maintainer, which works well:
https://www.amazon.com/NOCO-GENIUS1-...zcF9hdGY&psc=1

My Escape is kept on 30A shore power at home, so the converter maintains the (flooded) batteries.