Bad converter?

[CharlesPou]

OK, I’m looking at PD4655V for $291 which is apparently part of my WF-8955PEC for approx same price. so what is advantage?, less work to install? boy, I’m learning way more than I intended haha.

I decided not to get fixed in Vegas because RV tech wanted $350 plus $15 shipping for I’m guessing now was PD4655V, which I thought was outrageous, but maybe not? IDK?

I can’t visualize how this all goes together? I take off the front of the power distribution, and remove maybe 4 screws and the breakers come off, and then I see Ron’s pic, so then what? I’m functional now, but tedious, so I’m afraid to start taking it apart on road, then have total failure lols.

please keep comments coming. cheers

[John in Santa Cruz]

you shouldn't have to remove the breakers.

first, unplug any shore power cord, and disconnect the battery negative cable. take the cover off the power center.

there's a couple screws that hold the power converter in place in the lower bay of the power center, remove these screws, and the converter should partially slide out, constrained by its wires.

there's 2 power wires from the power converter to the fuse panel, they are labeled on the fuse panel, loosen the screw and pull those two wires out of the wire clamps. fish the wires down to the converter bay.

there's 3 wires from the power converter to the circuit breaker side... green goes to a ground stud, white goes to a neutral bar, black goes to the main breaker. loosen the appropriate screw clamps, free those wires, fish them down to the power converter, and the whole thing should come clear.

if you got the PD4655, refer to its instructions for how to remove it from the metal chassis it comes in, and attach the WFCO specific mounting rail thing. a WFCO converter should already have said rail. ALso, the newer PD4655's have jumpers for lead-acid vs lithium batteries, be sure to set the jumper appropriately

sort out the 5 wires from the new converter, and as you start to slide the converter into its bay, feed the DC wires up behind the fuse panel, and feed the AC wires into the circuit breaker side. fish the wires to where they need to go, insert the stripped ends into the appropriate wire clamps, tighten til they are firm. slide the converter the rest of the way in and replace the mounting screws that hold it into the power center.

whole job takes me about 30 minutes if I take my time. I did one PD4645 replacement in a Progressive power center in my old Casita, I replaced the WFCO with a PD4655 in my Escape because I wsa upgrading to lithium batteries, and I replaced a dead WFCO with a PD4655 in this old guy's big stickie RV at a Elks campground in Chico in 106F weather, because without DC power, he had no air conditioning as his thermostat wouldn't work, he was a fire refugee, his whole town up in the hills had been evacuated.

(the PD4645 in the Casita is a 45A unit, the 4655 for our WFCO's are 55A units, otherwise identical).

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by CharlesPou

OK, I’m looking at PD4655V for $291 which is apparently part of my WF-8955PEC for approx same price. so what is advantage?, less work to install? boy, I’m learning way more than I intended haha.

I decided not to get fixed in Vegas because RV tech wanted $350 plus $15 shipping for I’m guessing now was PD4655V, which I thought was outrageous, but maybe not? IDK?

I can’t visualize how this all goes together? I take off the front of the power distribution, and remove maybe 4 screws and the breakers come off, and then I see Ron’s pic, so then what? I’m functional now, but tedious, so I’m afraid to start taking it apart on road, then have total failure lols.

please keep comments coming. cheers

You are just replacing the main board assembly at the bottom of the power center. Not sure why one would buy the PD4655V just to remove it from a metal case. Just buy the Progressive Dynamics WildKat PD4655L available from Randy at Bestconverter.com.
https://www.bestconverter.com/PD-465...l#.WniBl3xG1aQ

John provided great info above but here is a thread where I highlighted the replacement…
https://www.escapeforum.org/forums/f...tml#post237217

Page two of this manual covers the install:
https://www.bestconverter.com/assets...55TVmanual.pdf

[CharlesPou]

great replies, I also read the whole rubicon link to his install, very interesting info. my ?, what if I already have a complete WF-8955PEC power distribution and converter that works properly. can I pull the converter out of it and just replace the defective converter that is apparently overcharging the batteries? appears would be same process, only would not have the upgraded converter.

actually, I was very happy how the two 6 volt batteries preformed and how they were being charged. I don’t feel need for an upgrade. I would be very happy to just repair what I have back to the way it was. I can see getting the upgrade if the OEM is not otherwise available or costs the same or more.

another ?, what are y’all doing with your left over WF-8955 converters after you upgrade?, saving for spare? tossing in trash? maybe some demand for used converters that were otherwise working properly? anyone have one for sale?

also, I read with interest about checking for loose connections. I’ve already had this issue with the outside shore power plug, so suspect may have some loose connections inside my WF-8955?

after all this good discussion I almost feel competent to check my converter and possibly replace it, amazing! again, thanks for great comments! cheers

[John in Santa Cruz]

The older wfco converters are not very reliable, two of the 3 I replaced had failed completely, yours has failed with a high voltage

[CharlesPou]

thanks john, I’ll probably see the light and do upgrade, just not my normal MO. meantime, I’m getting educated on how to fix my converter, while i continue my crazy trip haha, cheers

[CharlesPou]

so this morning I ate my Wheaties and disassembled the converter. 1st I remove 2 screws and took off the face plate, from there I could see the converter with 3 wires on left side 2 heavier wires on right.

I unscrewed 2 screws securing converter, and slid it out, so far easy peasy. I can see how 2 heavier wires on right side have to snake under and around, maybe would take awhile but appears doable. checking the 3 wires on left side appears black wire goes to breaker with another wire, so maybe need to cut converter wire to remove old converter

I also noticed these 2 wires at this breaker were loose, can wiggle. so just like I thought, I found a loose connection. as I recall, this is 2nd breaker down and labeled refrigerator. my refrigerator currently doesn’t work on propane, but I think an unrelated issue. as they say, “when it rains, it pours”.

so, next I check all the wires to make sure tight. all were good except the 2 wires going to breaker as described above. 2 down from the top, or anyway the breaker the black wire goes to from the converter.

as normal for me, I have a problem. I couldn’t tighten this screw, appears frozen. actually most of the breaker connections were frozen. I’m thinking need to spray with some specialized electrical solvent which I don’t currently have.

I put it all back together, restored shore power, battery is currently disconnected to keep from overcharging, and everything appears to be back to limp mode normal haha.

so all in all I think made big progress this morning. cheers

[Ron in BC]

Originally Posted by CharlesPou

so all in all I think made big progress this morning. cheers

Absolutely you made major progress. Often some folks suffer from analysis paralysis or are just plain afraid of breaking something with the result that they don't even take the first step. So you've done that and now have a good idea of what's what inside the panel.

As far as tightening or undoing the set screws on the breakers, what screwdriver bit did you use? Those terminals will take a slot screwdriver, a Philips but also a square Robertson bit. The Robertson is hands down the best bit to use. If you didn't try it before try it next time you're ready to do some work on the panel.

Ron

[John in Santa Cruz]

Originally Posted by Ron in BC

... As far as tightening or undoing the set screws on the breakers, what screwdriver bit did you use? Those terminals will take a slot screwdriver, a Philips but also a square Robertson bit. The Robertson is hands down the best bit to use. If you didn't try it before try it next time you're ready to do some work on the panel.

If you do use a phillips make sure its the biggest one that fits in the screw. Thats true for /all/ phillips screws, btw.

[CharlesPou]

thanks Ron for kind words. I was using flathead and square bit screwdrivers. I’ve twistedoff plenty of fasteners over the years, these definitely feel frozen, I’m afraid if I force it, it will twist off screw head.

how do breakers disassemble? I’m thinking if I could pull out breakers a little might get a better purchase on screw head. I think needs some solvent and soak for a time before trying again. thanks for replies, cheers

[John in Santa Cruz]

The wire screws are often very tight. you won't break anything, just be sure the screw driver is a snug fit in the screw so it doesn't strip or cam out.

The breaker kinda snaps onto the power rail behind it. IIRC, the right side of the breaker is 'hooked' onto the right edge of the breaker bay, then the left side is pushed firmly so a clip on the back of the breaker seats firmly on the metal bar behind it that connects it to the power source. So if you think this breaker is broken, get a new one, cut the wire to the old one, and unsnap it by prying the left side 'out' til it comes free. This is a very standard breaker type, tandem type BRD (which can be used as a type BR or type BD). a home despot kinda place might not have a 30A+15A however, but a good electrical supply store should. I suggest bringing the old breaker to the shop to be matched for best results.

ah, here's a old pic of my power center with the converter removed...



so screws on left with bare copper wires, those are the grounds, screws across the top are the neutrals, the top 30A breaker gets the 30A 'live' circult from the shore cord, the 15A breaker just under it is the power to the (missing) power converter, those two breakers are a single 'tandem' unit.. Eaton BD3015 should get you the right part, they are made by several other companies.


edit, oh, no solvent, please. that will gum up the innards of the breaker, these are definitely meant to be dry.

[Ron in BC]

Originally Posted by CharlesPou

I’m thinking if I could pull out breakers a little might get a better purchase on screw head.

There's no need to remove the breaker to undo the set screw. I've undone hundreds of breakers from a wide assortment of electrical panels. Many times the set screw has been very firmly in place. Put enough torque on the bit, Robertson only please, and it will come free. I've never broken a set screw ever no matter how firm it was.

It's important to use the correct size Robertson. The one that's one size too small will be a loose fit and can cause problems when it has slop and has a lot of torque on it. The correct one is a snug fit in the set screw.

Ron

[CharlesPou]

thanks for replies, OK, no solvent. I think I’ll work on getting breaker out and maybe having a spare ready before I really put the torque to it.

I’m pretty sure I have the correct square bit. I visualize bad outcome that could handicap me even more. if I was home with no travel plans I would torque until it broke loose or broke. I’m thinking not a good idea to try my luck in middle of nowhere lols.

thanks for great replies. cheers

[CharlesinGA]

A 30/15 tandem will be nearly impossible to find. Probably have to special order it. If for some odd reason the breaker needs replacing, I think you have an extra stab, and the 30/15 could be replaced with a standard 30 amp and then a standard 15 amp put on the extra stab. The NEC only allows FIVE circuits (not including the main) in a 30 amp RV.

551.42 Branch Circuits Required. Each recreational vehicle containing an ac electrical system shall contain one of the circuit arrangements in 551.42(A) through (D).

SNIP I omitted (A) and (B) as they are not relevant to this discussion.

(C) Two to Five 15- or 20-Ampere Circuits. A maximum of five 15- or 20-ampere circuits to supply lights, receptacle outlets, and fixed appliances shall be permitted. Such recreational vehicles shall be permitted to be equipped with distribution panelboards rated 120 volts maximum or 120/240 volts maximum and listed for 30-ampere application supplied by the appropriate power-supply assemblies. Not more than two 120-volt thermostatically controlled appliances (e.g., air conditioner and water heater) shall be installed in such systems unless appliance isolation switching, energy management systems, or similar methods are used.

Exception: Additional 15- or 20-ampere circuits shall be permitted where a listed energy management system rated at 30-ampere maximum is employed within the system.

The following breakers are approved for use in WFCO 8500 and 8900 power centers.

Manufacturer Model/Cat. No./Type
Cutler Hammer Type BR and C
Thomas Betts Type TB or TBBD
ITE/Siemens Type QP or QT
Square D Type HOM or HOMT
Murray Type MP-T or MH-T
General Electric Type THQL, THQP

Cutler Hammer became Eaton, and Siemens and Murray are one in the same, while the Square D referenced are the Homeline series only, and

Reference this document.

The use of the GE THQP breakers requires a special buss bar/stab design that is an option, and only GE breakers will fit that variant of the panel. Thomas and Betts was acquired by ABB of Switzerland so I'm not sure how they are branded. Eaton and Siemens are the best bets for replacements.

Also note that because the 30/15 is the main breaker, it has a retaining clip and screw that has to be removed to get that breaker out. Be sure and reinstall it, as it is required by code.

Late EDIT: the energy management system referred to is usually a device that allows the water heater and a convection/microwave to share a single circuit. There are more complicated systems available however. A standard microwave is NOT a thermostatic controlled appliance, but a convection microwave is. I installed a simple energy management device to share the microwave and water heater on my trailer. I briefly discussed this and included some pics in THIS POST of an earlier thread.

Charles

[John in Santa Cruz]

FWIW, the 30A side of that breaker is the power INPUT to the breaker bus, so those 3 tandem breakers ARE 5 circuits.

anyways, yeah, a 30/15 is not a /common/ breaker, you won't find them at the usual Big Box stores like Home Despot, but they exist, and a proper electrical supply shop should have them. Eaton or Cutter BD3015...

but I'm sure you just need a little more torque on that screwdriver, use one with a big handle.

[CharlesPou]

thanks for replies, interesting to read applicable regulations. a little more torque? I have plenty of torque. one time I helped change a tire on Ford p/ up and wheel studs were seized. I twisted off 2 of the studs to get the tire off lols. you probably wouldn’t want me working on your converter breakers haha. cheers

[Ron in BC]

Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz

but I'm sure you just need a little more torque on that screwdriver, use one with a big handle.

I sometimes use a rachet with a socket to hold the bit.

Fortunately these breakers allow for the use of a Robertson bit. Unlike older breakers with only a slot. Not great if you're putting lot's of torque on it in a hot panel.

Ron

[CharlesPou]

I wondering if you ever used an impact driver with a light pop to just loosen it, get it started. i found in past a difficult fastener with steady increasing torque will sometimes just cause damage. where as the impacts sudden jarring action will break it loose. just a thought, I may give it a try? cheers

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by CharlesPou

checking the 3 wires on left side appears black wire goes to breaker with another wire, so maybe need to cut converter wire to remove old converter

That is known as a utility pigtail. It is mentioned in the PD install doc I linked above. It allows two items to be powered with only the equivalent of one wire on the breaker. You never want to put multiple wires under a breaker screw. I assume manufacturers do this to save breaker space. You can just cut the wire to remove the old converter and then attach the new black wire with a wire nut.

[CharlesPou]

thanks rubicon, I was wondering how to handle. I assume I need to leave some length of the old converter black line to attach the new converter black line to with wire nut? cheers