Grey tank drain line separation

[Greatboatz3]

Thanks Dcboyd, That's great information. I guess I will do the same>
Jim A.

[Rick G]

Originally Posted by Rick G

The electrical code solution is to use a female adapter with a metal threaded close nipple for a more robust connection (Section 12-1112). I am not sure how the metal (brass close nipple) will work with the ABS pipe and sewer water in the long term.

Does anyone see any problems or concerns about changing out the 1 ½” ABS male adapters with 1 ½” ABS female adapters combined with a 1 ½” brass close nipple to strengthen the grey tank connections?

[tdf-texas]

Originally Posted by Rick G

Does anyone see any problems or concerns about changing out the 1 ½” ABS male adapters with 1 ½” ABS female adapters combined with a 1 ½” brass close nipple to strengthen the grey tank connections?

Using a brass close nipple is kinda going the wrong way to resolve the grey tank fitting breakage problem. You want to add points of flex to allow the piping be able to move without strain. The brass nipple would make the connection more rigid and make it more susceptible to cracking.

Adding a 1 1/2" flexible coupling will fix the grey tank piping problem.

[Rick G]

Originally Posted by tdf-texas

Using a brass close nipple is kinda going the wrong way to resolve the grey tank fitting breakage problem. You want to add points of flex to allow the piping be able to move without strain. The brass nipple would make the connection more rigid and make it more susceptible to cracking.

Adding a 1 1/2" flexible coupling will fix the grey tank piping problem.

Thanks for the reply, I agree, a properly placed flex coupling would reduce the vibration back to the Male adapter (weak link). There are two locations on the 21NE that I think this would work, the bathroom shower, sink pipe and the drain valve pipe. Plenty of room to install near the tank.

I am not sure how effective the flexible coupling will be, leading to the kitchen sink pipe. My concern is that the flexible coupling would have to be installed in the vertical position in the cabinet above the floor penetration. The vibration / movement between the tank and the floor penetration has me troubled.

The 21 NE kitchen drain pipe penetrates the floor and then has two short 90 degree bends before going into the side of the tank, different pipe routing than the 21C. I am not sure the two close 90 degree bends will provide enough flex to prevent cracking at the male adapter. (See pic) It’s not a great picture but you can see the piping in the bottom left corner.
Maybe a combination of the flex coupling and female/ brass nipple would work.

I have more experience with PVC piping than ABS and know that the male adapters are famous for breaking (not much material between the outer threads and inner pipe).

Thanks again for your thoughts, also liked your idea in a previous post of a pipe hanger to support the valve drain assembly.
Rick

[tdf-texas]

Originally Posted by Rick G

Thanks for the reply, I agree, a properly placed flex coupling would reduce the vibration back to the Male adapter (weak link). There are two locations on the 21NE that I think this would work, the bathroom shower, sink pipe and the drain valve pipe. Plenty of room to install near the tank.

I am not sure how effective the flexible coupling will be, leading to the kitchen sink pipe. My concern is that the flexible coupling would have to be installed in the vertical position in the cabinet above the floor penetration. The vibration / movement between the tank and the floor penetration has me troubled.

The 21 NE kitchen drain pipe penetrates the floor and then has two short 90 degree bends before going into the side of the tank, different pipe routing than the 21C. I am not sure the two close 90 degree bends will provide enough flex to prevent cracking at the male adapter. (See pic) It’s not a great picture but you can see the piping in the bottom left corner.
Maybe a combination of the flex coupling and female/ brass nipple would work.

I have more experience with PVC piping than ABS and know that the male adapters are famous for breaking (not much material between the outer threads and inner pipe).

Thanks again for your thoughts, also liked your idea in a previous post of a pipe hanger to support the valve drain assembly.
Rick

For the kitchen sink, take a look at installing a Hepvo instead of the trap. That does two things.
one: the use of SJ fittings to connect the Hepvo gives the piping plenty of flex.
two: the Hepvo gets rid of the trap and gains some more room under the sink.
https://www.escapeforum.org/forums/f...all-12288.html

By the way, has Escape started to put vents on the kitchen sink drains? If not, the Hepvo gets rid of the need for one.
https://www.franklyfaucets.com/does-...om%20occurring.



I appreciate your comments - we're kinda brainstorming together what could be done to fix this problem. The end solution is probably a combination of all our ideas!

[Rick G]

Originally Posted by tdf-texas

For the kitchen sink, take a look at installing a Hepvo instead of the trap. That does two things.
one: the use of SJ fittings to connect the Hepvo gives the piping plenty of flex.
two: the Hepvo gets rid of the trap and gains some more room under the sink.
https://www.escapeforum.org/forums/f...all-12288.html

By the way, has Escape started to put vents on the kitchen sink drains? If not, the Hepvo gets rid of the need for one.
https://www.franklyfaucets.com/does-...om%20occurring.

Yes, I like the idea of a Hepvo waterless valve. I have read some of your earlier posts on the subject. When I get the trailer home this spring I will look at installing one.

The new trailers do not have piping vents for the kitchen sink, so the Hepvo would certainly improve the situation. We visited the Escape showroom in October and took the pictures I am posting.

Thanks for the additional information on vent plumbing. I gained a little experience with venting when I installed an Island kitchen sink at home and had to use an air admittance valve. Youtube is helpful.

Knowledge and experience are wonderful and there is plenty on the escape forum.
Rick

[bborzell]

I was kinda hoping that my first post here would be something other than, “Really, grey water tank fittings are failing on late model Escape trailers?”.

When I think of the various systems that have come together to make up a travel trailer over the past 100 years or so, the one that I would think should be pretty well dialed in by now is the tankage/plumbing system.

I know that trailers and motorhomes are famous for being rolling earthquakes, but fitting failures should be rather easily avoided with sound engineering, appropriate components and proper installation. In fact, none of the motorhomes or travel trailers I have owned have ever had a tank fitting failure.

If I am coming across as a bit surprised as I have been reading this thread, it might be because my wife and I are a couple of days away from a video walkthrough of a 21C and, after visiting a couple who own an Escape 21C, we came away thinking that the decision was all over, but the shouting.

In my mind, getting the plumbing right is fundamental to the build integrity of the trailer. Looks like we will have a very basic question to ask of Escape.

[Perry Butler]

Has anyone kept track of how many are actually affected, the model #'s, and year of build?

Thanks,

Perry

[tdf-texas]

Originally Posted by Perryb67

Has anyone kept track of how many are actually affected, the model #'s, and year of build?

Thanks,

Perry

I have a 2017 21c and I redid the piping but not because it was leaking but to improve the draining time.

It's just the newer trailers that have the piping problem due to the fact that Escape changed the way they ran the pipe - they ran the piping straight into the grey tank rather than offset like the way my trailer was run.

On a travel trailer, everything moves a little going down the road - the frame flexes a little, the body moves a little, etc. So everything on a trailer should be built to allow a little movement without breaking. With the straight piping runs, there is no "give" in the piping and the piping breaks at the weakest point which is the threaded fitting going into the tank.

So how do we fix this? Adding a little area of flex to the piping takes the strain off the vulnerable "weak spots" in the piping. A 1 1/2" flexible coupling added near where the piping connects to the grey tank takes care of it. The coupling cost about $4 and take just minutes to install. A saw to cut the pipe and a screwdriver to tight the coupling clamps is all that is needed.

Here's my point in a nutshell. This is not a big issue that is make or break for buying an Escape. Yes, Escape should be adding the flexible coupling or changing the piping back like it was previously to stop the breakage but if they don't, it's not a big deal to take care of this by yourself.

Unless you did something silly like order the trailer with the spray foam on the bottom.

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by Perryb67

Has anyone kept track of how many are actually affected, the model #'s, and year of build?

One could sort through the thread but in general the problem appears to be with newer 21C's only after a supposed piping change. My concern is that problems have not only been reported with the outlet piping but in some cases the inlet piping. Let's also not forget that the 21's in the past also had the leaky black tank issue (although that appears to have been resolved).
It wouldn't stop me from buying a new 21 but I certainly wouldn't be opting for the underbody spray foam.

[Telescopist]

Originally Posted by tdf-texas

On a travel trailer, everything moves a little going down the road - the frame flexes a little, the body moves a little, etc. So everything on a trailer should be built to allow a little movement without breaking. With the straight piping runs, there is no "give" in the piping and the piping breaks at the weakest point which is the threaded fitting going into the tank.

Can you provide actual documentation that straight piping = no "give" = failure of threaded fitting? Or is this just an opinion?

Here's my point in a nutshell. This is not a big issue that is make or break for buying an Escape. Yes, Escape should be adding the flexible coupling or changing the piping back like it was previously to stop the breakage but if they don't, it's not a big deal to take care of this by yourself.

Unless you did something silly like order the trailer with the spray foam on the bottom.

You can chortle all you want. Your foresight with respect to potential structural issue-problems is admirable. That said I don't agree with your description that it was "silly" because those of us who who made the decision to have foam insulation sprayed underneath the trailer did not have your level of insight into the potential problems which might arise.

[Ron in BC]

Originally Posted by bborzell

In my mind, getting the plumbing right is fundamental to the build integrity of the trailer. Looks like we will have a very basic question to ask of Escape.

Instead maybe you should be asking Escape owners who take their trailers to delightful motoring roads in places like Baja what they think.

Mine's done Baja and many off road forestry service roads in BC. No leaks, no problems. You're only hearing opinions from a minority of folks, the majority don't have a problem and aren't posting anything.

Ron

[bborzell]

Originally Posted by Ron in BC

Instead maybe you should be asking Escape owners who take their trailers to delightful motoring roads in places like Baja what they think.

Mine's done Baja and many off road forestry service roads in BC. No leaks, no problems. You're only hearing opinions from a minority of folks, the majority don't have a problem and aren't posting anything.

Ron

I understand the phenomenon of issues appearing to be ubiquitous when they might represent a small minority of actual instances. And I am glad to hear that you have not experienced a leak through fitting failure.

But, we are not talking about either rocket science or complex and nuanced matters here. If plumbing is installed in a manner that does not take movement into account, then the plumbing can break at the weak point. Not every trailer will suffer such a break as quickly as some of those reported here, and some might never break. But, if movement stresses are not addressed upfront, the risk of failure is much greater. This should not be a matter of opinion.

And, most importantly, this is an easily and inexpensively addressed matter during the initial build.

[gbaglo]

Originally Posted by bborzell

But, if movement stresses are not addressed upfront, the risk of failure is much greater. This should not be a matter of opinion.

And, most importantly, this is an easily and inexpensively addressed matter during the initial build.

There are probably a thousand other items that may wear over time. Should those also be addressed during the initial build?

How much do you want to pay?

[bborzell]

Originally Posted by gbaglo

There are probably a thousand other items that may wear over time. Should those also be addressed during the initial build?

How much do you want to pay?

I certainly don’t want to get into a back and forth with folks who have no such leak.

[tdf-texas]

Originally Posted by gbaglo

There are probably a thousand other items that may wear over time. Should those also be addressed during the initial build?

How much do you want to pay?

I believe the piping issue is a "pay me now or pay me later" thing. It may never fail for some but for those that do fail, it's a headache, especially for those with the foam.

For those with 2017 or earlier trailers, the piping is not a problem - Reace did the piping with enough flex that I have not heard of the pipe connections breaking on those trailers.

The new Escape owners decided to "improve" the piping and that's when reports of drain piping fittings breaking started. The piping improvement should have accommodated some give in the piping. If they had, we would not be having this discussion.

A $4 coupling is not a high cost item.

[bborzell]

Originally Posted by tdf-texas

The new Escape owners decided to "improve" the piping and that's when reports of drain piping fittings breaking started. The piping improvement should have accommodated some give in the piping. If they had, we would not be having this discussion.

A $4 coupling is not a high cost item.

This makes sense to me.

Is it your impression that the base issue is having a straight pipe coming from the tank flange rather then routing the pipe with elbows (that might offer needed flex in the run)?

If so, what are the “owner improvements” you mentioned that might have exacerbated the straight pipe issue?

[MTDave]

Originally Posted by bborzell

This makes sense to me.

Is it your impression that the base issue is having a straight pipe coming from the tank flange rather then routing the pipe with elbows (that might offer needed flex in the run)?

If so, what are the “owner improvements” you mentioned that might have exacerbated the straight pipe issue?

I asked Escape if they had addressed this problem in their newer trailers, here if the reply I received from Melisa.

"Welcome to the Escape Family. There was issues with the grey tank but we have addressed that issue. We are doing flexible hoses and more supports so this does not happen. "

[lorrie]

Originally Posted by gbaglo

There are probably a thousand other items that may wear over time. Should those also be addressed during the initial build?

How much do you want to pay?

Oh, I don't know, how about $4 more for the fitting that will assure or at least significantly reduce my chances of getting a gray tank drain line separation? Not a lot for peace of mind, especially if I want foam insulation.

As you can see, ETI has acknowledged that problem and is changing how they do things going forward. And they are doing that because people are giving them feedback. So let's not jump all over people who point out better ways of doing things, because they are the reason EVERYONE gets a better product.

Have a nice day

[gbaglo]

Originally Posted by lorrie

As you can see, ETI has acknowledged that problem and is changing how they do things going forward. And they are doing that because people are giving them feedback. So let's not jump all over people who point out better ways of doing things, because they are the reason EVERYONE gets a better product.

Have a nice day

I draw a distinction between a post that points out an issue and posts that jump on with more "should have", especially when the poster doesn't even own an Escape.