After build Inverter install questions

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by tdf-texas

1. 10 gauge SO cord with plug. It didn't come with the trailer - I had to build it. The one that Escape installed was 12 gauge. 12 ga. is good for 20 amps - not 30.

Tom: Since even a 2000W inverter is supplying less than 20A AC could one use a 12 gauge wire if paired with a 20A breaker in the main power center which then supplies two 15A breakers in the sub panel? There is a lot of diversity in the use of outlets and the inverter sizes we are talking about can’t produce 30A.

[NEWYORKHILLBILLY]

Originally Posted by tdf-texas

1. 10 gauge SO cord with plug. It didn't come with the trailer - I had to build it. The one that Escape installed was 12 gauge. 12 ga. is good for 20 amps - not 30.
https://www.lowes.com/pd/Southwire-1...-Foot/50148254
https://www.lowes.com/pd/Eaton-20-Am...lug/1002943742

2. In a subpanel, the ground bar and the neutral bar must be separate. Ground bar was already installed. Here's the pics in this post.
https://www.escapeforum.org/forums/f...tml#post368807

Tom on you picture of your sub panel ,what type of fittings did you use . looks like a glued on plastic fitting. I think that would work better in a mobile installation than romex connectors . I am putting together a fitting list . 2 for the sub panel and 3 for the transfer switch .

[tdf-texas]

Originally Posted by rubicon327

Tom: Since even a 2000W inverter is supplying less than 20A AC could one use a 12 gauge wire if paired with a 20A breaker in the main power center which then supplies two 15A breakers in the sub panel? There is a lot of diversity in the use of outlets and the inverter sizes we are talking about can’t produce 30A.

It's one of those things that you do because you think it matters - but it really doesn't.

After I typed what I had done, I realized that to get 30 amps out of the inverter, the batteries would have to supply over 300 amps and that isn't going to happen with just two 6v batteries. Supposedly, the GP-HS1500 inverter I have is rated to supply 3000 watts surge which would be over 20 amps so I changed the power cord to the transfer switch to match the inverter.

The 12 gauge cord was probably fine. But as you know by now, I tend to overengineer everything I do.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by rubicon327

Tom: Since even a 2000W inverter is supplying less than 20A AC could one use a 12 gauge wire if paired with a 20A breaker in the main power center which then supplies two 15A breakers in the sub panel? There is a lot of diversity in the use of outlets and the inverter sizes we are talking about can’t produce 30A.

Yes, the inverter to transfer switch cord only needs to handle 20 A (as Tom mentioned in his response). On the other hand, there's no need to limit the sub-panel circuits to a total of 20 amps on shore power just because the inverter can't supply more, so Escape uses (or used in the past) 30 amp components: breaker in main panel, transfer switch, and wiring between them.

Although WFCO allows up to 30 amp branch circuit breakers, some people (and apparently some electrical codes) don't like the feed from the main panel to the sub-panel having the same overcurrent device (breaker) capacity as the main panel's main breaker (30 amps). 20 amps is unnecessarily limiting on shore power, so if using a 30 amp breaker is a concern then 25 amps would make sense to me. 25 amp breakers of types listed by WFCO as compatible appear to be readily available. I have not heard of anyone doing this - feeding the transfer switch with shore power via a 30 amp breaker (as Escape normally does) is the usual practice.

[NEWYORKHILLBILLY]

Tom on you picture of your sub panel ,what type of fittings did you use . looks like a glued on plastic fitting. I think that would work better in a mobile installation than romex connectors . I am putting together a fitting list . 2 for the sub panel and 3 for the transfer switch .

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

Yes, the inverter to transfer switch cord only needs to handle 20 A (as Tom mentioned in his response). On the other hand, there's no need to limit the sub-panel circuits to a total of 20 amps on shore power just because the inverter can't supply more, so Escape uses (or used in the past) 30 amp components: breaker in main panel, transfer switch, and wiring between them.

Although WFCO allows up to 30 amp branch circuit breakers, some people (and apparently some electrical codes) don't like the feed from the main panel to the sub-panel having the same overcurrent device (breaker) capacity as the main panel's main breaker (30 amps). 20 amps is unnecessarily limiting on shore power, so if using a 30 amp breaker is a concern then 25 amps would make sense to me. 25 amp breakers of types listed by WFCO as compatible appear to be readily available. I have not heard of anyone doing this - feeding the transfer switch with shore power via a 30 amp breaker (as Escape normally does) is the usual practice.

Understood. Unfortunately I believe both of my outlet circuits are twinned on a single 15A breaker right now! I'm hopeful that Escape got away from this practice as the picture that NEWYORKHILLBILLY provided of his power center shows two circuits clearly labeled "plugs".

[NEWYORKHILLBILLY]

Originally Posted by rubicon327

Understood. Unfortunately I believe both of my outlet circuits are twinned on a single 15A breaker right now! I'm hopeful that Escape got away from this practice as the picture that NEWYORKHILLBILLY provided of his power center shows two circuits clearly labeled "plugs".

I have 3 outlet circuits coming into the panel .one circuit feeds the outside GFI along with two inside outlets ( side of counter and bed area) . The other two are piggy backed together,But there is only one plug on each circuit so even tied together is still only 2 outlets. (under fridge and under dinette) all will reach the sub panel except the passenger side dinette outlet . I working on a solution for this problem. maybe run new wire to this outlet or use the other wiring that Greg had mentioned. I will know how better things fit when i get them in my hands.

[Mike Lewis]

Originally Posted by NEWYORKHILLBILLY

Mike Not sure why they did that. on your samlex what model is it and is it hooked up to a transfer switch? I been looking at the samlex SSW-1500-12A.

Yes, this is the model I have. It works well for powering a microwave for a few minutes. I have repositioned it vertically so I can put more batteries into the space.

[Mike Lewis]

Oh, and yes, my inverter is connected to a transfer switch.

[NEWYORKHILLBILLY]

Originally Posted by Mike Lewis

Yes, this is the model I have. It works well for powering a microwave for a few minutes. I have repositioned it vertically so I can put more batteries into the space.

Originally Posted by Mike Lewis

Oh, and yes, my inverter is connected to a transfer switch.

Thanks Mike thats good to hear . I have one ordered

[tdf-texas]

Originally Posted by NEWYORKHILLBILLY

Tom on you picture of your sub panel ,what type of fittings did you use . looks like a glued on plastic fitting. I think that would work better in a mobile installation than romex connectors . I am putting together a fitting list . 2 for the sub panel and 3 for the transfer switch .

Escape used a 3/4" PVC male terminal adapter for a bushing. The clear proflex they used was just something to keep the fitting from vibrating loose.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/3-4-in-M...0104/202043511

It's not the right fitting to use in this application - it should be either a NM clamp-type cable connector or a bushing but it works. The fitting they used is really for attaching PVC conduit to the box - not as a enclosure knockout bushing.

[NEWYORKHILLBILLY]

Now that I understand this wiring better than I did when I started the thread.(thanks to you guys) I am seriously consider not adding the sub panel and wiring as Greg A recommend. I would only be turning on the inverter while using it for short periods. one concern with this method That brain mentioned is the Ac breaker looks to be placed down stream in the AC panel on converter panel. After thinking this over there always be a breaker up stream prior to feeding the switch because you either be plunged into shore power or generator witch would both have overload protection. So in my case the fridge and A/C unit would be the two things powered to be concerned with. I not to worried about the A/C as its pretty hard to turn that on by accident. The fridge is my concern. I have to make sure no one hit the auto button or ac button. If this happened to be turned on by accident would it hurt anything? I know it would be drawing the AC current from the inverter and drawing the batteries down. Besides that is there any other bad affects that I am over looking? another option is for me to just keep the fridge a/c breaker off except while on shore power.

[Vermilye]

Originally Posted by NEWYORKHILLBILLY

Now that I understand this wiring better than I did when I started the thread.(thanks to you guys) I am seriously consider not adding the sub panel and wiring as Greg A recommend. I would only be turning on the inverter while using it for short periods. one concern with this method That brain mentioned is the Ac breaker looks to be placed down stream in the AC panel on converter panel. After thinking this over there always be a breaker up stream prior to feeding the switch because you either be plunged into shore power or generator witch would both have overload protection. So in my case the fridge and A/C unit would be the two things powered to be concerned with. I not to worried about the A/C as its pretty hard to turn that on by accident. The fridge is my concern. I have to make sure no one hit the auto button or ac button. If this happened to be turned on by accident would it hurt anything? I know it would be drawing the AC current from the inverter and drawing the batteries down. Besides that is there any other bad affects that I am over looking? another option is for me to just keep the fridge a/c breaker off except while on shore power.

It won't hurt anything other than a 70 - 80 amp draw on the batteries. I still prefer a separate sub panel over "remembering" to turn things off...

[tdf-texas]

Originally Posted by NEWYORKHILLBILLY

Now that I understand this wiring better than I did when I started the thread.(thanks to you guys) I am seriously consider not adding the sub panel and wiring as Greg A recommend. I would only be turning on the inverter while using it for short periods. one concern with this method That brain mentioned is the Ac breaker looks to be placed down stream in the AC panel on converter panel. After thinking this over there always be a breaker up stream prior to feeding the switch because you either be plunged into shore power or generator witch would both have overload protection. So in my case the fridge and A/C unit would be the two things powered to be concerned with. I not to worried about the A/C as its pretty hard to turn that on by accident. The fridge is my concern. I have to make sure no one hit the auto button or ac button. If this happened to be turned on by accident would it hurt anything? I know it would be drawing the AC current from the inverter and drawing the batteries down. Besides that is there any other bad affects that I am over looking? another option is for me to just keep the fridge a/c breaker off except while on shore power.

That seems to be a lot of work turning breakers on and off just to save the few dollars that a subpanel costs.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-D...0SCP/100157760

A subpanel is $15. So for $15, you are going to get down on your hands and knees each time you want to use the inverter to turn off breakers? And then, do it again to turn them back on when back on shore power? Oh, and the devices that should not be powered from the inverter would be the AC, hot water heater, refrigerator, and the converter.

You have to be a LOT younger than me - I wouldn't do it any more often than I was forced to.

[Greg A]

You just have to look at how you camp. I never have the fridge on Auto only use propane if I am on utilities I manually switch the fridge to AC if I want which is pretty much never, no electric water heater element, and AC is kinda obvious when it's turned. Converter is directly wired to the shore power side of transfer switch so nothing to think about there.
The inverter isn't on 24/7, you only turn it on when boondocking when your needing it, so even if the fridge was accidentally on auto it wouldn't be drawing for more than a minute or two.
Lot's of folks appear to wire up this way without a sub panel and it doesn't seem to be creating any big issues.
No downsides to wiring this way for me and there won't be any switching breakers on or off as there would be no concern about that.

[NEWYORKHILLBILLY]

Originally Posted by tdf-texas

That seems to be a lot of work turning breakers on and off just to save the few dollars that a subpanel costs.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-D...0SCP/100157760

A subpanel is $15. So for $15, you are going to get down on your hands and knees each time you want to use the inverter to turn off breakers? And then, do it again to turn them back on when back on shore power? Oh, and the devices that should not be powered from the inverter would be the AC, hot water heater, refrigerator, and the converter.

You have to be a LOT younger than me - I wouldn't do it any more often than I was forced to.

Its not the price of the sub panel thats the problem. its finding a place to mount it where the current circuits will reach . I would have to relocate the solar controller rewire one circuit to make it reach .I could still and may still do this. I have another sub panel coming that may fit better and its plastic so its lighter also. https://www.lowes.com/pd/Square-D-60...Center/3130569

On the non sub panel Install The converter charger would no longer have a breaker. so its not like you have to shut breakers down every time you used the inverter. I was just thinking if you shut down refrigerator breaker while not on shore power . I would not have to worry about someone hitting the auto button by mistake. I not on shore power to often .

[Mike Lewis]

Originally Posted by tdf-texas

Here's the completed wiring diagram if it helps. Keep in mine - this is for my trailer that has all the wiring corrections made.

Did you use a CAD program to produce this drawing? If so, which one do you use? I need to plan out my 12V circuits. Thanks.

[tdf-texas]

Originally Posted by Mike Lewis

Did you use a CAD program to produce this drawing? If so, which one do you use? I need to plan out my 12V circuits. Thanks.

Visio. I can send you the wiring diagram .vsd file if you want it.

[Centex]

Originally Posted by Mike Lewis

Did you use a CAD program to produce this drawing? If so, which one do you use? I need to plan out my 12V circuits. Thanks.

Likely a bit more tedious than Visio but you can make do handily with lowly MS-Paint. Some of the symbols I use were 'liberated' from tdf-texas' drawings downloaded from the his forum posts. I build the drawings as png files, have a separate 'master sheet' with symbols that I select>copy>paste into the diagrams as needed.

This example done with MS Paint is reduced about 60% to meet forum posting criteria, so has some loss of definition from the original:

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by Centex

Likely a bit more tedious than Visio but you can make do handily with lowly MS-Paint. Some of the symbols I use were 'liberated' from tdf-texas' drawings downloaded from the his forum posts. I build the drawings as png files, have a separate 'master sheet' with symbols that I select>copy>paste into the diagrams as needed.

This example done with MS Paint is reduced about 60% to meet forum posting criteria, so has some loss of definition from the original:

Alan: I see you have Dickinson cooktop ignition listed on your 12V fuse panel. The 2 burner Dickinson cooktop we have uses a 9V battery. No connection to the trailer electrical like the Suburban cooktop that Escape is now using.