Adding more lithium batteries

[kavm]

We have 2 100 AH Lithium batteries and 190W solar panels in our E5.0. Among the consumers, we have a compressor fridge. This setup has worked very well over the last couple of years. This winter we added Starlink to the equation.

With that, we ran out of charge in our batteries twice when while boondocking in the Big Bend NP. Each time, everything went dark, due to something in BMS that likely prevents excessive discharging.

We, thankfully, have a 7.2kW generator built into our F150 Hybrid. So, we were able to charge it and get past the problem. [Later on, we were also able to figure out the setting in Starlink where it can sleep and not consume energy at night. This might have saved us from going dark had we started using it early on, but I do not know. ]

Anyway, this whole thing was not fun. It eroded our confidence in the batteries a bit - and we camped in parks with electric hookups on the return trip. I'd like to remedy that situation and need some advice.

• First, background: We aren't good at this stuff and the actual work will be done by someone knowledgeable. And, my purpose here is to get some advice and ideas.
• I was thinking that we can perhaps add a 3rd lithium battery. Assuming that's a good idea - here are some questions:
  • There seem to be 250 and 270 Ah batteries on the market, even higher numbers (400 Ah) are available. Is it feasible to add that to the two 100 Ah batteries?
  • Some (at least Battleborn) batteries are heated. Our, Escape installed GoPower batteries are not heated - but I understand have BMS that prevents them from charging below freezing. Does it make sense to add a heated battery as a third?
  • I don't think we can add to the solar on the roof. Could I suppose get a portable solar but we aren't often at the campsite during the day. So, not sure how useful that is. Also, don't think that charging was the issue but not sure.
  • Any other advice?

[alanmalk]

Originally Posted by kavm

We have 2 100 AH Lithium batteries and 190W solar panels in our E5.0. Among the consumers, we have a compressor fridge. This setup has worked very well over the last couple of years. This winter we added Starlink to the equation.

With that, we ran out of charge in our batteries twice when while boondocking in the Big Bend NP. Each time, everything went dark, due to something in BMS that likely prevents excessive discharging.
...

• • Any other advice?

First, to summarize your camping. Boondocking in Big Bend, in winter. It doesn't get much better if you enjoy being alone with a sense of total isolation and nothing around except mother nature. I could go on but we would never get around to talking batteries.

So, winter camping with the standard 190 Watts, Escape provided, almost flat, roof panel. It never gets close to being at an optimum angle for producing 190 Watts in the winter. You would have to camp at the equator to come close. Your average mid-day power output will be closer to 100 Watts. And your nights are longer and colder. and your internet takes more evening time. So, yes, your BMS saves your batteries by doing a shutdown, exactly as prescribed.

The math doesn't add up. You produce less power and you need more. Your batteries could be top-of-the-line BB, or lead-acid from Joe's used battery store. If you want more high quality quiet camping, then you need more solar. Sure, generators and shore power, and the like, can fill in the gaps but not in Big Bend where you (and I) would rather be. We all have that problem, and even others in Big Bend have expressed exactly what you have.

Many folks solve the power shortage problem by either additional fixed panels on the roof or a portable or two. You mentioned that you would not be around to move the portable all day. That means you are out fishing, hiking, visiting, etc - all the things you go camping for. But - and this is an important "but" - your portable can be moved into an optimum angle for the mid-day (strongest) sun and it will produce at least as much as your 190 rooftop in just a few hours. Just set it up in the morning and forget about it - being sure that no shade will come between the sun and it, at least until late afternoon. I have seen my (150 W) portable produce 100% more than my (160) rooftop in the late fall.

Ok, so you now have a way to produce more power. What do you do with it? You store it in batteries, of course. 2 - 100 AH Lithiums can store as much as 2 - 100 AH lead-acid batteries. But you can get more out of Li's than L-A, and save tons of weight, and get a better discharge curve, etc, etc. That's why we went with Li's in the first place. So, my recommendation, stick with Li's.

The details (remember, the devil): Heating? Not if your batteries get some warmth from your living quarters. Get heated batteries if they live outside or you want to charge them when the trailer is unoccupied. The requirement is that they be above 32F/0C internally when being charged (discharge is OK). Better batteries have a BMS that will prevent charging when cold (but some mid-range and most cheap ones do not have this protection.)

Continuing: Can they be different (ie, newer, bigger, etc.)? The generally accepted answer is "no" for various reasons we don't need to worry about. My personal solution (just got a compressor 'fridge myself) is to use an "A-B-Both" switch like many boaters do. (I used to live on a boat. We needed 2 different batteries - a house battery and a starter battery. In the boat instance this could be a life or death situation, but I digress.) For a trailer, you use this rather simple switch to choose the 'batteries of the day' - old or new. The unused battery will sit totally disconnected, hopefully in a charged state, until you switch back as you use up the first ones. You can also put them in "both" position when you have lots of sun or shore power and charge them at the same time. It gives you flexibility to use un-matched batteries and piece of mind to have a backup battery.

[rubicon327]

Gotta love the practical advice and real-world experience in Alan's post. Another possible consideration related to batteries is to remove and sell your existing lithium batteries on FB Marketplace or the like and replace them with one large LiFePo battery like a 400AH Bestgo or two 206AH SOK's in parallel.

[kavm]

Originally Posted by alanmalk

First, to summarize your camping. Boondocking in Big Bend, in winter. It doesn't get much better if you enjoy being alone with a sense of total isolation and nothing around except mother nature. I could go on but we would never get around to talking batteries.

So, winter camping with the standard 190 Watts, Escape provided, almost flat, roof panel. It never gets close to being at an optimum angle for producing 190 Watts in the winter. You would have to camp at the equator to come close. Your average mid-day power output will be closer to 100 Watts. And your nights are longer and colder. and your internet takes more evening time. So, yes, your BMS saves your batteries by doing a shutdown, exactly as prescribed.

The math doesn't add up. You produce less power and you need more. Your batteries could be top-of-the-line BB, or lead-acid from Joe's used battery store. If you want more high quality quiet camping, then you need more solar. Sure, generators and shore power, and the like, can fill in the gaps but not in Big Bend where you (and I) would rather be. We all have that problem, and even others in Big Bend have expressed exactly what you have.

Many folks solve the power shortage problem by either additional fixed panels on the roof or a portable or two. You mentioned that you would not be around to move the portable all day. That means you are out fishing, hiking, visiting, etc - all the things you go camping for. But - and this is an important "but" - your portable can be moved into an optimum angle for the mid-day (strongest) sun and it will produce at least as much as your 190 rooftop in just a few hours. Just set it up in the morning and forget about it - being sure that no shade will come between the sun and it, at least until late afternoon. I have seen my (150 W) portable produce 100% more than my (160) rooftop in the late fall.

Ok, so you now have a way to produce more power. What do you do with it? You store it in batteries, of course. 2 - 100 AH Lithiums can store as much as 2 - 100 AH lead-acid batteries. But you can get more out of Li's than L-A, and save tons of weight, and get a better discharge curve, etc, etc. That's why we went with Li's in the first place. So, my recommendation, stick with Li's.

The details (remember, the devil): Heating? Not if your batteries get some warmth from your living quarters. Get heated batteries if they live outside or you want to charge them when the trailer is unoccupied. The requirement is that they be above 32F/0C internally when being charged (discharge is OK). Better batteries have a BMS that will prevent charging when cold (but some mid-range and most cheap ones do not have this protection.)

Continuing: Can they be different (ie, newer, bigger, etc.)? The generally accepted answer is "no" for various reasons we don't need to worry about. My personal solution (just got a compressor 'fridge myself) is to use an "A-B-Both" switch like many boaters do. (I used to live on a boat. We needed 2 different batteries - a house battery and a starter battery. In the boat instance this could be a life or death situation, but I digress.) For a trailer, you use this rather simple switch to choose the 'batteries of the day' - old or new. The unused battery will sit totally disconnected, hopefully in a charged state, until you switch back as you use up the first ones. You can also put them in "both" position when you have lots of sun or shore power and charge them at the same time. It gives you flexibility to use un-matched batteries and piece of mind to have a backup battery.

Hello Alan,

Many many thanks! And, many thanks for introducing us to Big Bend NP! It was your affirmative response that led me there and we loved it. Will be back sooner rather than later.

Your advice in this matter of batteries makes sense. It is indeed a cheaper and easier solution to buy a portable solar solution. We did order our camper from Escape with Zamp Solar Port wired to Regulator. Not exactly sure how and where that connection is in the camper but it is wired for it. So, it should be a matter of buying that portable solar.

We will try with that - and hopefully it will be enough. Thanks a lot for pointing me in the right direction.

[kavm]

Originally Posted by rubicon327

Gotta love the practical advice and real-world experience in Alan's post. Another possible consideration related to batteries is to remove and sell your existing lithium batteries on FB Marketplace or the like and replace them with one large LiFePo battery like a 400AH Bestgo or two 206AH SOK's in parallel.

Thank you, Dave! I will look into this possibility.

[SageRpod]

We ran into almost this same scenario camping in southern New Mexico over Christmas and New Years. Almost the same 5.0 setup except 400ah of lithium. The heater ran a lot and the Starlink (our first time using it) sucked power, more than our roof top panels could provide. Alan is spot on when he talks about the value of a portable. We had our 130 portable that we used to follow the low winter sun it pulled in more power than our roof top panels delivered combined. Get a portable and you should be good to go.

[kavm]

Originally Posted by SageRpod

We ran into almost this same scenario camping in southern New Mexico over Christmas and New Years. Almost the same 5.0 setup except 400ah of lithium. The heater ran a lot and the Starlink (our first time using it) sucked power, more than our roof top panels could provide. Alan is spot on when he talks about the value of a portable. We had our 130 portable that we used to follow the low winter sun it pulled in more power than our roof top panels delivered combined. Get a portable and you should be good to go.

Thanks a lot! This is a plan!

Did you get the zamp solar port from Escape? If so, whereabouts in the camper would we find it?

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by kavm

If so, whereabouts in the camper would we find it?

The port should be on the exterior and look like this…
https://www.zampsolar.com/products/side-wall-port

[kavm]

Originally Posted by rubicon327

The port should be on the exterior and look like this…
https://www.zampsolar.com/products/side-wall-port

Thanks a lot, Dave! I think we have it. Will look for it next time we get the camper out of storage.

[dosby]

Originally Posted by alanmalk

Continuing: Can they be different (ie, newer, bigger, etc.)? The generally accepted answer is "no" for various reasons we don't need to worry about. My personal solution (just got a compressor 'fridge myself) is to use an "A-B-Both" switch like many boaters do. (I used to live on a boat. We needed 2 different batteries - a house battery and a starter battery. In the boat instance this could be a life or death situation, but I digress.) For a trailer, you use this rather simple switch to choose the 'batteries of the day' - old or new. The unused battery will sit totally disconnected, hopefully in a charged state, until you switch back as you use up the first ones. You can also put them in "both" position when you have lots of sun or shore power and charge them at the same time. It gives you flexibility to use un-matched batteries and piece of mind to have a backup battery.

Also interested in upgrading w/t removing existing batteries.
What would the switch look like? Manually switching the wires from one battery setup to another or something more complicated? Do they sell such high-amp switches?
Thanks!

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by kavm

Thanks a lot, Dave! I think we have it. Will look for it next time we get the camper out of storage.

You might just want to double-check that it is wired to your solar controller and not directly to the battery. Early Gen2 trailers with this option seemed to be a mixed bag but they should have gotten it straightened out by 2021 MY. If it is wired to the onboard controller you obviously need a portable solar panel with no controller. If it is wired direct to the battery you will either rewire it or you need a portable panel with a controller. Utilizing the onboard Victron solar controller is preferred so you have less losses with the higher voltage from the panel and through the (presumably) long wiring to the solar controller in the trailer.

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by dosby

Also interested in upgrading w/t removing existing batteries.
What would the switch look like? Manually switching the wires from one battery setup to another or something more complicated? Do they sell such high-amp switches?
Thanks!

I believe Alan is referring to a switch like this. I have one on my boat. Allows you to completely isolate, charge/discharge from bank 1, just bank 2 or banks 1+2.
https://www.bluesea.com/products/600...Switch_-_Black

[SageRpod]

Originally Posted by kavm

Thanks a lot! This is a plan!

Did you get the zamp solar port from Escape? If so, whereabouts in the camper would we find it?

Our Escape came with the Zamp port. It's polarity is reversed from the typical SAE plug and it's wired through the solar controller on the Escape. We could have rewired everything and/or bought an adapter for Zamp plug, but I decided to simply attach the pigtail that came with our portable solar panel kit directly to the battery bank. It has a much sturdier Anderson plug which we access from the access door on the rear. Our portable panel has a 10amp controller attached already. Maybe someday we will rewire but the juice isn't worth the squeeze right now.

[dosby]

Originally Posted by rubicon327

I believe Alan is referring to a switch like this. I have one on my boat. Allows you to completely isolate, charge/discharge from bank 1, just bank 2 or banks 1+2.
https://www.bluesea.com/products/600...Switch_-_Black

oh, perfect! basically switching between positive terminals, with negatives from both batteries connected all the time.
I am thinking of putting a new 200Ah under the bench but I still want to keep my existing 100Ah in the back of the trailer where ETI put it - it would be a backup battery fully charged maybe couple of times a year.

[kavm]

Originally Posted by rubicon327

You might just want to double-check that it is wired to your solar controller and not directly to the battery. Early Gen2 trailers with this option seemed to be a mixed bag but they should have gotten it straightened out by 2021 MY. If it is wired to the onboard controller you obviously need a portable solar panel with no controller. If it is wired direct to the battery you will either rewire it or you need a portable panel with a controller. Utilizing the onboard Victron solar controller is preferred so you have less losses with the higher voltage from the panel and through the (presumably) long wiring to the solar controller in the trailer.

Thank you! This seems to be beyond my (lack of) expertise. I will need to engage a mobile tech we have found to clarify the matter.

[C&G in FL]

I personally would go in a different direction. Rather than adding additional solar panels or batteries, I would get a Honda EU2200i, convert it to run on propane (it will run on a 20 lbs cylinder for a long time and bring a couple of spare tanks in addition to what is on the trailer. It would be a lot less expensive than adding additional battery capacity and/or additional solar panels. With a soft start, the Honda should run the A/C if needed and would easily power everything else mentioned, including Starlink. But I also wonder what Starlink is being used for? Remote work? Streaming video entertainment? General internet surfing? If I were to go to Big Bend for the isolation, I’m not sure I would want to be connected to the rest of the world electronically. Of course, YMMV applies in this case. I only boondock infrequently.

[alanmalk]

Same thing, bigger illustrations (and "free" Amazon shipping).


https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000K2MCR2...lig_dp_it&th=1

[kavm]

Originally Posted by C&G in FL

I personally would go in a different direction. Rather than adding additional solar panels or batteries, I would get a Honda EU2200i, convert it to run on propane (it will run on a 20 lbs cylinder for a long time and bring a couple of spare tanks in addition to what is on the trailer. It would be a lot less expensive than adding additional battery capacity and/or additional solar panels. With a soft start, the Honda should run the A/C if needed and would easily power everything else mentioned, including Starlink. But I also wonder what Starlink is being used for? Remote work? Streaming video entertainment? General internet surfing? If I were to go to Big Bend for the isolation, I’m not sure I would want to be connected to the rest of the world electronically. Of course, YMMV applies in this case. I only boondock infrequently.

As I mentioned, I already have a 7.2kW inverter generator as a part of F150 Powerboost. So, not looking to add a generator to this equation. We don't need A/C. I had a Houghton AC installed but aside from testing it, we have not needed it for real camping.

[Sean Murry]

We have the 190W roof top solar panel and 2x100W portable panels that we used to run through the Zamp Port (and yes the polarity was reversed on ours as well). However doing it this way means the roof top and portables are running in parallel. If either of the panels is in the shade, it diminishes the effectiveness of the other panels. So we now have the portable panels wired directly to the battery. Since we bought the panels without controllers to be used with the Zamp port, we had to buy an extra controller for the portables. This way the roof top can offer whatever charge they can, and the portables can be moved around to optimize the sun.

[Sean Murry]

We also have 4x100A Battle Born batteries and we have a 12V compressor fridge.