Quick Connect Propane Option

[Mike G]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

Everything with it's own regulator, that is... and nothing designed for low pressure.

It would be unsafe to deliver unregulated propane to an outlet normally used for a regulated supply of low-pressure propane. The RV standard for convenient tank-pressure propane connections is the "needle valve" or "appliance" fitting with 1"-20 thread, as found on a one-pound single-use propane cylinder.

One difficulty in supplying unregulated propane is that the changeover valve is in the regulator, so if the supply is tapped before the regulator, it will be from only one tank. It's common to do that with a simple tee fitting, but it will also draw from whatever tank it is attached to.

I do not understand. I have read that the pressure of a 1 lb single-use cylinder is virtually identical to the pressure of a 20 lb tank. True, or untrue? And the outlets of both those tanks are unregulated, yet they are not called "unsafe."

Why would it be more unsafe to deliver unregulated propane to the end of a pipe than it is to deliver unregulated propane from the outlet of a tank? (When you open the tank's valve, what comes out is not regulated.) I fail to see (but maybe you can explain) why a single unregulated-pressure pipe ending in a quick-connect valve (while the remaining RV supply to its on-board appliances is regulated as usual) would be particularly unsafe; the end of the pipe has an on-off valve. I know of no portable LP-burning appliance (of a type that RVers hook to an outdoor QC fitting) that does not have its own regulator, which will render the result "safe". So why have a stupid, idiotic redundancy of regulating the LP traveling to another regulator?

[brroberts]

I got the propane quick connect thinking I might use it. I never have, and likely will not. Of the options I chose, it’s the only one I wish I would have not selected. It’s just not useful to me.

[TTMartin]

Originally Posted by Mike G

My new-to-me 2012 19' has the LP quick-connect by the door. At first I was a bit excited about this feature, but now it seems more like a useless appendage (like an extra left foot ) than a benefit.

So I'm thinking to myself, Why would I ever want to remove all these regulators when I can simply turn off one of my 20 lb tanks, unscrew its hose, and attach an auxiliary hose between the tank and the appliance? The tanks are not very far away from the quick-connect; if a hose will reach one, there's a pretty good chance it will reach the other. Besides, if I removed all those regulators, none of the appliances would function with a disposable bottle (like if I want to use them farther away than the hose will reach).

Many appliances that use 1 lb propane have the regulator right at the tank. For those types of appliances you can usually find an adapter that hooks up to the appliance where the tube between the 1 lb propane tank and the appliance would connect, so you don't have to give up the ability to use 1 lb propane tanks.

For appliances that use a 20 lb propane tank and have the regulator right at the tank you can unhook the hose from the appliance or right after the regulator and add a female and male quick connect there. That's what I did with my Outland Fire Bowl. So now I can use it with the quick connect on the trailer, but, I can still attach the original regulator to a 20 lb tank and use that as a low pressure quick connect anywhere.

Originally Posted by TTMartin

I added a low pressure propane quick connect to it.



12ft RV Propane Quick Connect Hose and Conversion Fitting for Blackstone 17inch and 22inch Table Top Griddle - 1/4 inch Safety Shutoff Valve & Male Full Flow Plug

I also purchased an Outland Propane Firebowl.



Outland Firebowl 893 Deluxe Outdoor Portable Propane Gas Fire Pit with Cover & Carry Kit, 19-Inch Diameter 58,000 BTU


I replaced it's hose with regulator with a quick connect hose.

18 FT RV Quick Connect Propane Hose for RV to Grill for Camp Chef Stove and Fire Pit- 3/8 Female Flare Fitting x 1/4 Full Flow Quick

I then added a female quick connect to the hose with a built in regulator that came off the firebowl.

Nigo Industrial Co. Brass Tube Fitting, Half-Union, Flare x NPT Male Pipe (1, 3/8" Flare x 1/4" NPT Male)

1/4" RV Propane Quick Connect Adapter for Propane Hose, Propane or Natural Gas 1/4" Quick Connect or Disconnect Kit - Shutoff Valve & Full Flow Plug

Now I can run my Blackstone off of the trailer quick connect, a 20 lb propane tank, or a 1 pound propane tank. And my firebowl off the trailer quick connect or 20 lb propane tank.

[Ian and Sue]

Originally Posted by Mike G

My new-to-me 2012 19' has the LP quick-connect by the door. At first I was a bit excited about this feature, but now it seems more like a useless appendage (like an extra left foot ) than a benefit.

I have a number of things that can run on a 1 lb disposable LP bottle, that I might want to hook to the trailer's LP system:
Weber Q100 grill
2-burner camp grill, 40 years old, not sure of brand
single burner butane/propane dual fuel burner, GasOne
Portable Buddy heater
Coleman BlackCat catalytic heater

Since all of these are made to run on a disposable tank, obviously each and every one of these must currently possess a built-in regulator. Otherwise the little bottle has waaay to much pressure (same with a 20 lb tank). So I'm thinking to myself, why would I ever want to remove all these regulators when I can simply turn off one of my 20 lb tanks, unscrew its hose, and attach an auxiliary hose between the tank and the appliance? The tanks are not very far away from the quick-connect; if a hose will reach one, there's a pretty good chance it will reach the other. Besides, if I removed all those regulators, none of the appliances would function with a disposable bottle (like if I want to use them farther away than the hose will reach).

I don't see the point of the quick-connect. For me, it's a dud!

After I removed my regulator from my Weber Q 100 type grill and installed the quick-connect (which I love BTW) I got some fittings and set up the regulator and a female quick connect so I can still use high pressure sources.

[7Gentex]

Originally Posted by Mike G

I do not understand. I have read that the pressure of a 1 lb single-use cylinder is virtually identical to the pressure of a 20 lb tank. True, or untrue? And the outlets of both those tanks are unregulated, yet they are not called "unsafe."

Why would it be more unsafe to deliver unregulated propane to the end of a pipe than it is to deliver unregulated propane from the outlet of a tank? (When you open the tank's valve, what comes out is not regulated.) I fail to see (but maybe you can explain) why a single unregulated-pressure pipe ending in a quick-connect valve (while the remaining RV supply to its on-board appliances is regulated as usual) would be particularly unsafe; the end of the pipe has an on-off valve. I know of no portable LP-burning appliance (of a type that RVers hook to an outdoor QC fitting) that does not have its own regulator, which will render the result "safe". So why have a stupid, idiotic redundancy of regulating the LP traveling to another regulator?

In general, you want an unregulated, or high pressure line ("pipe") to be as short as possible in case of a potential leak.

As 1# disposable bottles have 20 times less fuel available than a #20 bottle (Duh ), Consumer propane appliances with a high pressure #1 pound bottle inlet, and an onboard regulator, are designed that way for a purpose - SAFETY. (less fuel available)

You really don't want a combination of high pressure and a lot of fuel available.

ASME propane tanks (think residential outside tanks) are required by the NFPA to be regulated within 36" of the service valve. Granted, that regulator may be a 60psi version, though there will be another low pressure regulator prior to the gas service entering a structure.

Modifying consumer appliances to run off a low pressure feed (trailer 11" WC QC) is a much better/safer idea than high pressure runs of "pipe".

[Mike G]

Originally Posted by 7Gentex

In general, you want an unregulated, or high pressure line ("pipe") to be as short as possible in case of a potential leak.

As 1# disposable bottles have 20 times less fuel available than a #20 bottle (Duh ), Consumer propane appliances with a high pressure #1 pound bottle inlet, and an onboard regulator, are designed that way for a purpose - SAFETY. (less fuel available)

You really don't want a combination of high pressure and a lot of fuel available.

ASME propane tanks (think residential outside tanks) are required by the NFPA to be regulated within 36" of the service valve. Granted, that regulator may be a 60psi version, though there will be another low pressure regulator prior to the gas service entering a structure.

Modifying consumer appliances to run off a low pressure feed (trailer 11" WC QC) is a much better/safer idea than high pressure runs of "pipe".

Ok, thanks. I appreciate you pointing this out. Now I think I understand. You're right, if a high pressure LP line became damaged and leaked, it would probably allow the entire contents of the tanks to flow out. As it now stands, only a tank rupture or a break in the hose leading to the regulator would let an entire tank's contents to escape. Being flammable, such an event could be serious.

[hugh]

Originally Posted by 7Gentex

In general, you want an unregulated, or high pressure line ("pipe") to be as short as possible in case of a potential leak.

As 1# disposable bottles have 20 times less fuel available than a #20 bottle (Duh ), Consumer propane appliances with a high pressure #1 pound bottle inlet, and an onboard regulator, are designed that way for a purpose - SAFETY. (less fuel available)

You really don't want a combination of high pressure and a lot of fuel available.

ASME propane tanks (think residential outside tanks) are required by the NFPA to be regulated within 36" of the service valve. Granted, that regulator may be a 60psi version, though there will be another low pressure regulator prior to the gas service entering a structure.

Modifying consumer appliances to run off a low pressure feed (trailer 11" WC QC) is a much better/safer idea than high pressure runs of "pipe".

I don't disagree, but even major manufacturers like Coleman market a wide variety of high pressure propane hoses and distribution "trees".

Maybe the flow limiter on the portable 20-lb tanks mitigates the risk?

Also, in a free-flow condition, I'm fairly sure the limiting factor is going to be the evaporation rate of the fuel in the tank, regardless of whether it's free-flowing through a 300,000btu/hr low-pressure regulator or just directly out of a high-pressure line.

[Mark B1]

Originally Posted by brroberts

I got the propane quick connect thinking I might use it. I never have, and likely will not. Of the options I chose, it’s the only one I wish I would have not selected. It’s just not useful to me.

I actually asked Escape if they would install 2 low pressure fittings. They wouldn't so I purchased a "Y" fitting to connect both my outside Ranger II stove and Napoleon BBQ. I love the low pressure fittings and use them every trip. We almost never cook inside unless the weather is really bad. I would rather not carry extra tanks or bottles but understand people should do what works well for them.

[Lanark Camper]

I added a propane outlet to our 17B after taking delivery of it. We use it every camping trip to run our Blackstone griddle, Weber 1200 BBQ and propane fire pit. We have several 12’ propane hoses and a Y so easy to use these appliances pretty much anywhere in the campsite. We try to do all our cooking outside the RV.
The little green tanks experience gets old really fast. The check valves often leak if used and then removed before being empty creating a potential safety issue.
Everyone has different needs and experiences.
Bob

[Mike G]

Heh. Ok, I guess if I were trying to do nearly all my cooking outdoors, I'd have a couple of unregulated grills and I'd use the QC, too. My personal thought process has been, I paid for this nice indoor kitchen area with everything I need all in front of me, so I'll use it instead of lugging all my stuff outdoors every time. I cook outdoors if I'm going to make something extra greasy (spattering) or smelly, or if I want to add an open-flame or smoked flavor (for smoke I'll use charcoal, not gas) to whatever's on the menu; otherwise I cook indoors. So I can see why some people love the Quick Connect. Maybe someday I'll change and will love it too... but (like Red Green) I'm a man, so don't count on it!

[Mark B1]

Originally Posted by Mike G

Heh. Ok, I guess if I were trying to do nearly all my cooking outdoors, I'd have a couple of unregulated grills and I'd use the QC, too. My personal thought process has been, I paid for this nice indoor kitchen area with everything I need all in front of me, so I'll use it instead of lugging all my stuff outdoors every time.

I wonder if it has anything to do with climate. Living where we have freezing temperatures and snow half the year means that camping is spending as much time out doors as possible and the trailer is just a tool to allow us to extend the season or get inside if the weather turns sour. If we are touring and moving a lot verses camping in place, or if the weather is bad, we are more likely to keep it inside. Mostly we are in camping mode. Note that it takes about 1 minute each to hook up our stove and BBQ.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Mike G

I have read that the pressure of a 1 lb single-use cylinder is virtually identical to the pressure of a 20 lb tank. True, or untrue?

True. The pressure within a propane cylinder is dependent only on the temperature of the propane in the cylinder, regardless of the size of the cylinder or the style of connection used.

Originally Posted by Mike G

And the outlets of both those tanks are unregulated, yet they are not called "unsafe."

Why would it be more unsafe to deliver unregulated propane to the end of a pipe than it is to deliver unregulated propane from the outlet of a tank? (When you open the tank's valve, what comes out is not regulated.) I fail to see (but maybe you can explain) why a single unregulated-pressure pipe ending in a quick-connect valve (while the remaining RV supply to its on-board appliances is regulated as usual) would be particularly unsafe; the end of the pipe has an on-off valve.

What is unsafe is using a connection intended for low-pressure propane for high-pressure propane. Anyone could plug a low-pressure stove (for instance) into that outlet and the stove would be blasted with hundreds of times the pressure for which it is designed. It would be like supplying 120 volts AC to a car's accessory socket and plugging a 12-volt device into it.

This has nothing to do with on-off valves, or the distance between the tank and the outlet fitting.

Originally Posted by Mike G

I know of no portable LP-burning appliance (of a type that RVers hook to an outdoor QC fitting) that does not have its own regulator, which will render the result "safe". So why have a stupid, idiotic redundancy of regulating the LP traveling to another regulator?

Every low-pressure stove and other appliance has just a control valve, and no regulator, because they are designed to be connected to only a regulated source.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by 7Gentex

In general, you want an unregulated, or high pressure line ("pipe") to be as short as possible in case of a potential leak.

As 1# disposable bottles have 20 times less fuel available than a #20 bottle (Duh ), Consumer propane appliances with a high pressure #1 pound bottle inlet, and an onboard regulator, are designed that way for a purpose - SAFETY. (less fuel available)

You really don't want a combination of high pressure and a lot of fuel available.

Okay, but if any of the regulated low-pressure plumbing under or inside the trailer is ruptured (such as by a road hazard under the trailer, or fitting or line damaged by objects moving within a cabinet), the tanks will entirely empty over some period of time. The regulator's limited flow ability makes the problem worse, by likely keeping the flow rate down to the point that it doesn't trip the excess flow valve built into each tank's valve assembly. Even if the excess flow valve is tripped the leak will continue, just at a much reduced rate.

I once smelled propane in the morning, and found that I had no propane despite a good supply the day before. The regulator had failed, and slowly leaked out all of my propane through the regulator's diaphragm and vent. There is nothing in the system to stop that. This is one reason that I carry a spare regulator...

[Centex]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

..... that it doesn't trip the excess flow valve built into each tank's valve assembly. Even if the excess flow valve is tripped the leak will continue, just at a much reduced rate ...

It doesn't alter your point, but just so folks properly understand their propane system, isn't it more correct to recognize that the "OPD" built into most DOT tank valves is an Overfill Protection Device, not a too-high flow-rate limiting device?.

The device that limits too-high flowrate is actually in the Type1 connector on the pigtail or appliance hose, not a device in the tank valve.

That distinction notwithstanding your point regarding low-flow-rate leaks not being 'clamped' still applies of course.

One reason I think it important to understand this distinction is so folks can better diagnose the remedy for the oft-reported problem of lack of flow when propane tank valves are 'opened too quickly' - the problem is likely with the pigtail (or appliance hose) Type1 connector mechanism and its behavior (see the article linked above), not the tank valve mechanism. A damaged or contaminated Type1 hose fitting can cause the problem and therein may be the remedy.

[Mike G]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

What is unsafe is using a connection intended for low-pressure propane for high-pressure propane. Anyone could plug a low-pressure stove (for instance) into that outlet and the stove would be blasted with hundreds of times the pressure for which it is designed...
Every low-pressure stove and other appliance has just a control valve, and no regulator, because they are designed to be connected to only a regulated source.

Brian, thanks for your reply. I would like to point out that, in my observations, portable low-pressure stoves & appliances are rather unusual... almost 'rare'... and the vast majority of items produced are high-pressure units. These portable units are built to have a disposable LP bottle screwed into them, so they have regulators on board. I have seen Flame King and Blackstone grills mentioned that are available in a low-pressure variant, but not much else.

In other words, I wonder whether the safety concern of "hooking a low pressure stove into a high pressure QC" would be a complete non-issue if all QC outlets were on high pressure (never low pressure), because the manufacturers simply would not make any low-pressure variants (even now, very few seem to make them).

The current QC couplings are not rated for high pressure, but they do manufacture high-pressure QC fittings, don't they?

[C&G in FL]

Originally Posted by Mike G

In other words, I wonder whether the safety concern of "hooking a low pressure stove into a high pressure QC" would be a complete non-issue if all QC outlets were on high pressure (never low pressure), because the manufacturers simply would not make any low-pressure variants (even now, very few seem to make them).

IMO, Brian is spot on in his explanation of high vs. low pressure propane lines and connections. Back in the day when I was working on my build sheet, I asked the front office staff if my QD could be located to the rear of my trailer rather than in front of the entryway as I thought that a hose I front of the door would constitute a tripping jazzers. That evening I got an unexpected phone call from Reace. He explained that ETI would not do it. After some discussion in which he explained that he didn’t feel it advisable to run the low pressure line over the axles, but he would do it if I signed a liability waiver, I followed his recommendation. I simply run one of my hoses under the trailer to the back, or if the circumstances dictate, under the outdoor mat. Nobody has ever tripped on it in 8 years.

Mike, to address your point of view, I would respectfully ask if you have considered the point of view of the manufacturers and the market in which they sell. Most campers use propane cookstoves and many use propane grills.

First I would state that I have NEVER seen a tent with a rack for 20 lbs cylinder(s) or with a low pressure (LP) QD fitting.

Secondly, I would state that low pressure QD fittings are a relatively new option on RVs. They were not offered on my first four camping trailers. Some appliance manufactures are now creating appliance adapters for LP use. Blackstone is one. Camp Chef markets a stove specifically designed for LP. A Coleman stove can be made to run on low pressure (it actually runs on lower pressure but more than 11” of water column). It requires major modification (I have done it) but it is not worth the effort. Coleman is not going to redesign or retool to manufacture a LP stove due to the cost……would you if you ran the Coleman Company?

I easily converted my Weber Grill and my Campfire-in-a-Can to run on LP, and I have a Camp Chef Stove that is in my attic at home because I found I prefer to all my cooking outside, on the grill, or in the event of rain, in the microwave (or go to a local eatery). I am happy I have the QD fitting, although I do not use it often because it is a PITA to change tanks in the 5.0TA. So I carry a 20 lbs cylinder in a milk crate in the back of my truck and a 5 lbs cylinder for “remote” usage. The photo below is of the “adapter” I assembled to use when I am not using the trailer’s QD. You will note it has a high pressure port in front of the regulator should I need to use a Colman lantern with a high pressure hose. All parts are readily available.

[Mike G]

Originally Posted by C&G in FL

Mike, to address your point of view, I would respectfully ask if you have considered the point of view of the manufacturers and the market in which they sell. Most campers use propane cookstoves and many use propane grills.

After 40 years of running sales-oriented businesses, I think I have considered it. Manufacturers generally are in the business of providing products that appeal to a fairly broad base of potential customers. A QC fitting can be a great convenience, if it can be easily and readily used by the average consumer. Many RVers graduate to an RV from tent or car camping, and they (like me) may already own a number of LP-burning accessories.... none of which will work properly on a low-pressure line. The average consumer wants something that will work straight out of the box, not something he has to fudge around with and modify. If a trailer mfr has half a brain, it will provide a feature that is a ready-to-use convenience, not one that requires "MacGyver" owners who have been educated on the intricacies of low vs high pressure appliances and who are willing to modify their stuff. (I think there is a disproportionate number of DIY-inclined people actively participating on some rv forums.)

Secondly, I would state that low pressure QD fittings are a relatively new option on RVs. They were not offered on my first four camping trailers. Some appliance manufactures are now creating appliance adapters for LP use. Blackstone is one. Camp Chef markets a stove specifically designed for LP. A Coleman stove can be made to run on low pressure (it actually runs on lower pressure but more than 11” of water column). It requires major modification (I have done it) but it is not worth the effort. Coleman is not going to redesign or retool to manufacture a LP stove due to the cost……would you if you ran the Coleman Company?

Yes, they're a relatively new convenience item... only, they're not as convenient as they ought to be, since they require mods on most appliances. Thanks for verifying what I said, that relatively few high-pressure LP appliances are currently for sale. The Coleman stove is a case in point: since not all appliances run on 11" W.C., a low-pressure QC makes even less sense because some appliances require "major" mods to work, whereas if the line and QC were high pressure, a plethora of products would work on it (and there would be no demand for low-pressure, unregulated appliances, thus no confusion).

I easily converted my Weber Grill and my Campfire-in-a-Can to run on LP,

Congratulations, you are in that upper echelon of consumers who are willing to fool around with propane fittings!

I am happy I have the QD fitting, although I do not use it often because it is a PITA to change tanks in the 5.0TA. So I carry a 20 lbs cylinder in a milk crate in the back of my truck and a 5 lbs cylinder for “remote” usage.

This is most revealing. Even though you are "happy" with the low-pressure QC fitting, it is so utterly inadequate to meet your LP needs that you "do not use it often" and you are compelled to carry a high-pressure LP solution in addition.

I'm happy that you are happy. Personally, I'm not so happy with my QC. Imagine my happiness when I saw it on the trailer I was buying and thought of all the LP appliances I already have that I could plug into it; and imagine my chagrin when I discovered that not one of my perfectly functional appliances will plug in without removing regulators (some of which are not so easy to remove as the Weber's). Thus, for me, the QC is about as convenient as an extra left foot! And I think a great majority of RVers and potential future RVers would agree with that. "Jack of all trades" people who will modify their stuff are a dying breed in this age of specialization and of greater comfort/convenience orientation.

[Mike G]

Consumers nowadays want stuff that just works, without fooling around with it. They get enough aggravation already (in the office and at home) from stuff that doesn't. On that theme, my daughter sent me this cute little cartoon.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Centex

It doesn't alter your point, but just so folks properly understand their propane system, isn't it more correct to recognize that the "OPD" built into most DOT tank valves is an Overfill Protection Device, not a too-high flow-rate limiting device?.

The device that limits too-high flowrate is actually in the Type1 connector on the pigtail or appliance hose, not a device in the tank valve.

Yes, you are absolutely correct - the excess flow device is in the hose fitting, not the tank valve assembly. Thanks for catching that.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Mike G

Brian, thanks for your reply. I would like to point out that, in my observations, portable low-pressure stoves & appliances are rather unusual... almost 'rare'... and the vast majority of items produced are high-pressure units. These portable units are built to have a disposable LP bottle screwed into them, so they have regulators on board. I have seen Flame King and Blackstone grills mentioned that are available in a low-pressure variant, but not much else.

Low-pressure RV ports are available because people do have appliances that use them. The most common are probably the camp stove/grill units such as those from Camp Chef and similar-looking units of other brands. All of these are normally used with a regulator mounted to the tank end of the supply hose, so they work on a regulated low-pressure supply from the RV simply by using a different hose. They tend to have high-power burners, so they use a lot of propane, so they're not practical to use on the little "one-pound" containers and so are designed to work with larger supplies... either from a 20-pound or larger tank directly using a regulator on the end of the hose, or from an RV's regulated supply.

Originally Posted by Mike G

In other words, I wonder whether the safety concern of "hooking a low pressure stove into a high pressure QC" would be a complete non-issue if all QC outlets were on high pressure (never low pressure), because the manufacturers simply would not make any low-pressure variants (even now, very few seem to make them).

A completely different standard would work, too, but in reality all QC outlets are low pressure, so there would a problem supplying high pressure to one.

Originally Posted by Mike G

The current QC couplings are not rated for high pressure, but they do manufacture high-pressure QC fittings, don't they?

There are some used at high pressure, but I don't know of any consistent standard. Instead of quick-connect, the industry standards for unregulated propane are the old POL (found on older and larger propane tanks), the current QCC Type 1 connection used on portable tanks (such as the 20-pound size), and the appliance/1"-20/needle-valve/disposable-cylinder connection which has been mentioned in other posts. A QCC Type 1 fitting is just about as quick and easy to use as quick-connect, so I don't see a need for yet another connection type.