Lithium replacement?

[MyronL]

I cannot fully appreciate all this great stuff because the jargon escapes me and I don't speak electronics. But, clearly you tech savvy guys know your beans.

And as the rest of us are finding out, now, with added lithium, matching solar converters and power centers are required, (who knew?). The big switch to Lithium isn't limited to a battery. Very risky (read expensive) stuff for the homeboy.

Let me boil it down. Here's my thoughts. The old WFCO has been on, connected to shore power, and my Battleborn is installed out of the box now almost a week, and today shows 13.3 volts in the yard.

• I need a new solar converter to replace the SunsaverDuo PWM with an MPPT.
• I need the old WFCO power center/charger replaced or converted to matching up with Lithium.

So many options, so many bucks involved. I can enjoy a good hunt but really, for this I am just a plug and play guy.

[TTMartin]

Originally Posted by MyronL

I cannot fully appreciate all this great stuff because the jargon escapes me and I don't speak electronics. But, clearly you tech savvy guys know your beans.

And as the rest of us are finding out, now, with added lithium, matching solar converters and power centers are required, (who knew?). The big switch to Lithium isn't limited to a battery. Very risky (read expensive) stuff for the homeboy.

Let me boil it down. Here's my thoughts. The old WFCO has been on, connected to shore power, My Battleborn is installed out of the box now almost a week, and today shows 13.3 volts.

• I need a new solar converter to replace the SunsaverDuo PWM with an MPPT.
• I need the old WFCO power center/charger replaced or converted to matching up with Lithium.

So many options, so many bucks involved. I can enjoy a good hunt but really, for this I am just a plug and play guy.

The Battleborn has a built in charge controller, so you don't have to worry about giving too much juice, just not enough.

IMO you only need to upgrade one of the charging systems to ensure the Battleborns get topped off periodically.

That could be done with a new MPPT solar charger, which will give you better efficiency from your solar panel.

I think it could also be done with a DC to DC charger which would trade WFCO amps for volts to for a better LiFePO4 charging profile.

I'm interested on hearing other peoples opinion on a DC to DC charger down stream of the WFCO.

[MyronL]

The thing is, though, that my 200watts of solar panels are not hard wired from my roof. Yes, I know I need an MPPT controller. But they are portables. I set them up and use them rarely. I need to know the battery gets charged when not on solar.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by MyronL

I cannot fully appreciate all this great stuff because the jargon escapes me and I don't speak electronics.

It's not possible to clearly and concisely describe anything which is complex without using some specialized terminology, and describing anything complex complete with a built-in education in all of the technology is just too long (and too much work!). Just ask about any specific points which are not clear.

Originally Posted by MyronL

Here's my thoughts. The old WFCO has been on, connected to shore power, and my Battleborn is installed out of the box now almost a week, and today shows 13.3 volts in the yard.

• I need a new solar converter to replace the SunsaverDuo PWM with an MPPT.
• I need the old WFCO power center/charger replaced or converted to matching up with Lithium.

That sounds reasonable, assuming that you don't need the tow vehicle to charge the trailer battery, just to keep stuff alive in the trailer while towing.

Originally Posted by MyronL

I can enjoy a good hunt but really, for this I am just a plug and play guy.

I think Escape is trying to assemble a set of coordinated options so it can be this simple for new orders, just as the have for years specified dual 6V batteries as required with the built-in inverter so customers don't need to understand all of the combinations and risk getting something unworkable. They're not quite there yet...

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by TTMartin

The Battleborn has a built in charge controller, so you don't have to worry about giving too much juice, just not enough.

Well, it has a high-voltage cutoff function in the BMS, which is a normal protective feature. That's pretty crude to be described as a "charge controller"; I think designers of electrical systems for RVs with these lithium battery units should plan to never trip that protective feature.

Originally Posted by TTMartin

IMO you only need to upgrade one of the charging systems to ensure the Battleborns get topped off periodically.

That could be done with a new MPPT solar charger, which will give you better efficiency from your solar panel.

I'm not convinced of that. If you are camping without continuous access to shore power you want to be able to actually use most of the storage capacity of the expensive lithium battery, and you can't do that unless the source you are charging from can reach the required voltage. Yes, for many people that would logically be the solar system... but if you drive each day and depend vehicle charging, it would be a DC-to-DC converter in the charging line from the tug; similarly, if you follow a pattern of staying in a serviced site for a day then boondock for a while without a solar system, it would be the power centre's converter.

Originally Posted by TTMartin

I think it could also be done with a DC to DC charger which would trade WFCO amps for volts to for a better LiFePO4 charging profile.

I'm interested on hearing other peoples opinion on a DC to DC charger down stream of the WFCO.

That would work, but just replacing the WFCO converter section with one (from WFCO or another supplier) which is suitable for the battery seems like a more elegant (and fundamentally simpler, and likely no more expensive) solution.

[John in Santa Cruz]

it strikes me that a 12V 'lead acid' replacement LiFePo *should* have its own integrated DC-DC charge controller that expects to see the typical 2-3 stage lead acid voltage profile on its input, and properly regulates an optimal LiFePo charge cycle. however, doing that while still allowing the battery to drive loads through the same two terminals is non-trivial.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz

it strikes me that a 12V 'lead acid' replacement LiFePo *should* have its own integrated DC-DC charge controller that expects to see the typical 2-3 stage lead acid voltage profile on its input, and properly regulates an optimal LiFePo charge cycle.

Okay, that would be truly "drop in", but then the integrated charger is taking up space in the battery case that should be battery, the charger is dumping heat into the battery case, and if either the battery or charger fail you're replacing both. And why have two chargers running without any coordination? In this scenario the existing converter/charger would be best set to run as a constant-voltage power supply, not a multi-stage charger.

I don't think that a battery package (in an RV, an electric car, or whatever) should have anything other than cells, BMS (including protective disconnect), and thermal management components (heater, in this case) in it.

Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz

however, doing that while still allowing the battery to drive loads through the same two terminals is non-trivial.

Yes, that's a complication, but it's not bad: if there is an external source (existing converter/charger or solar charge controller) keeping voltage over 13 V (or whatever threshold) the battery charges, and if not it supplies power at a constant voltage under that threshold. At least this integrated charger could also be a regulated voltage source, so the loads would not be exposed to the excessive voltage needed to fully charge a 4-cell LiFePO4 battery. So I don't think this should be built into the battery case, but a device bridging the lithium world and the existing designed-for-lead-acid systems is viable.

There are inverter/chargers that similarly serve a two-way function between the AC and DC systems in an RV: they charge the battery when external AC power is connected, and invert DC from the battery to AC when external AC power is not connected... through just one pair of terminals on each side.

[Centex]

In a situation like Myron's isn't there some reasonably priced 120V plug-in battery-only charger that's optimized to meet that occasional need for 'lithium top-up'? A charger to be used directly connected to the battery with the battery cut-off switch isolating the rest of the system?

And for the (perhaps many) days between those occasions, won't his current (pardon the pun) WFCO keep his new 'Brattleboro' reasonably healthy, productive, and beneficial for day-in-day-out use in his travels? While still delivering the big advantages of longer life, lighter weight, better run-time, no hydrogen gas, etc, etc?

Keeping in mind that Myron's use habits up to now have been satisfied, apparently without complaint, by lead-acid batteries?

I mean, does someone like Myron (that's many of us I suspect) need to get totally obsessed and money-invested with all the most optimal stuff for heavy L-ion use to enjoy 95%+ of the benefits of that 'BattleBurger'? I mean, if he (we) end-up 'sacrificing' a couple of hundred of the thousands of cycles that battery can manage, as a result of 'less-than-optimal' daily love .... will we ever really notice that?

[Mike Lewis]

If you buy a B2B charger to connect to the tow vehicle, I suggest getting one 60A or larger. I found that my 30A unit isn't big enough.

But then-- Myron has one battery, not two, and to his advantage it is located in the front of his trailer, so he would have a shorter cable run. I had to run #6 wire from my Tacoma's engine compartment to the back of my trailer and install a plug. It was quite an exercise.

[75thRanger]

I like simpler too Centex.

My Escape is primarily a fishing 'shack' for about a week at a time and I use the non electric sites (no shade) at my favorite COE parks. I have the dual 6v 220ah Trojans and they have performed great. I use the inverter for various things and have no problems.

I'm concerned about the fish and enjoying myself sitting on the bank in the warm autumn sun. I sometimes don't bait the hook cause I don't want to be bothered pulling a fish in. The batteries can worry about themselves!

I do like reading about all that stuff here and became convinced that I desperately needed a Victron monitor and just received it yesterday. I'll decide where to put it on my trip up to the OK lakes next week .

So much for simple. I hope I come to me senses before I learn how to spell lithummim

[MyronL]

I got this email response from Melissa at Escape. Not very helpful. No way to open that pdf file. Did not answer my question. How do you deal with this baloney? Guessing they have no practical solution for me. (Thanks for nothing Melissa.)


Thanks for chatting!
Here's your chat transcript from https://escapetrailer.com/

Got any questions? I'm happy to help.
8:17 AM

I have a 2013 19 with WFCO WF8955 and just replaced the lead batteries with one Battleborn 100ah 12v Life P04 Lithium. Do I need to upgrade that converter charger? Do you sell them?
You8:17 AM

WF-8950L2-MBA.pdf
1.2mb
There is a way to change the the mother board for it to work.
Melisa3:32 PM

Thank you again for reaching out to Escape Trailer! I am closing the chat for now and would be delighted to hear from you again in the near future.
Melisa3:32 PM

[MyronL]

I just found this on the Progressive Industries site. (I am beginning to regret starting the whole lithium business.)

[alanmalk]

Originally Posted by MyronL

...No way to open that pdf file. ...

Here is the essence of that document:
The WFCO WF-8950L2-MBA is an RV power converter replacement main board, optimized to safely charge deep-cycle lithium iron phosphate batteries, while powering the RV's lights and appliances. The WF-8950L2-MBA is a quick, easy replacement part for all WF-8900 Series 35/45/65/75-Amp Power Centers. It installs easily with only two screws, three AC wires, and two DC wires. With no need to re-wire, installation takes only 10 minutes.

Looks to cost around $250 USD.

But perhaps you could consider the simple approach first. That is - do nothing except put your new Lithium in place of your current batteries. You get many of the benefits with one notable exception - that is. The battery will probably not be "full", so you won't be able to pull 100 AH out of it. That's not a problem for the battery.

After using it for a while you can make an informed decision to keep it, add another, or sell it (to a fisherman who needs a nice trolling motor battery.)

--
Alan

[alanmalk]

Originally Posted by Centex

In a situation like Myron's isn't there some reasonably priced 120V plug-in battery-only charger that's optimized to meet that occasional need for 'lithium top-up'? A charger to be used directly connected to the battery with the battery cut-off switch isolating the rest of the system?

...

Yes, there are. In fact, my 100AH Lithium battery came with just such a charger. Simple enough to use in my case because the battery sits in my garage, not my trailer.

The device is rather simple. Puts out one voltage (14.4) and flashes a light at you when its time to stop charging. Provides about 10 amps which would charge a dead Lithium 100 AH battery in 10 hours.

Will it harm the battery if I forget to stop charging? No, because it can only reach 14.4 v which is below the danger level and can not go higher. Plus the current reduces to near 0 at that voltage.

But as others have correctly pointed out, a Lithium battery is not happy sitting at 100% full for long periods. So I only charge it before going fishing. That is one of the big complications for using it in a trailer - and the sellers neglect to mention that little problem.

--
Alan

[Perry Butler]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

I don't think that the whole "I can discharge it to zero" justification for lithium-ion batteries is valid. If you would plan for lead-acid battery useful capacity based on fully charging and discharging to 50% SOC, then a comparable approach for planning lithium-ion battery useful capacity would be based on charging to something like 90% and discharging to something like 15%. On this basis, the nominally 225 Ah dual GC2 lead-acid setup is good for 113 Ah, and a pair of Group 31 LiFePO4 batteries (taking up about the same space) rated at nominally 100 Ah each and 200 Ah total are good for 150 Ah total. The lithium setup is lighter and has significantly more capacity, but it's expensive, it has issues, and it doesn't have twice the capacity.

Originally Posted by Centex

Keeping in mind that Myron's use habits up to now have been satisfied, apparently without complaint, by lead-acid batteries?

I mean, does someone like Myron (that's many of us I suspect) need to get totally obsessed and money-invested with all the most optimal stuff for heavy L-ion use to enjoy 95%+ of the benefits of that 'BattleBurger'? I mean, if he (we) end-up 'sacrificing' a couple of hundred of the thousands of cycles that battery can manage, as a result of 'less-than-optimal' daily love .... will we ever really notice that?

We certainly don't need to spend $2,000+ to improve our battery situation. A friend of ours, on a fixed income, purchased a Battleborn for his NuCamp Tab 350. He lives in Tucson, where the temps easily see 40 to 45 C (104 - 113 F), and camps in the Colorado mountains in cold weather. If I were living in Tucson or similar areas I sure as hell wouldn't be looking at lithium, with its known degradation in warm environments.

The way I see it, a Battleborn lithium does not have an advantage over a 100Ah 12V Silicon Dioxide Lead Crystal Battery. Both can be charged at 14.4 - 14.8 volt for faster recovery. I see the SiO2 as having a safe 70-75 ah's available, with an slight edge to lithium at a solid 75 ah's, but to me that's moot, and rare would be the time we would ever be that low.

We have a perfectly good pair of two year old Crown AGM, 220 ah batteries that still register 12.8 two hours after the sun goes down. Our friends have a three year old pair of Lifeline AGM's that only register 12.65 two hours after the sun goes down and he feels they aren't as powerful as when new. He paid an extra $200 for those Lifelines vs our Crowns.

If we were to purchase a Battleborn that's $900, and I have to worry about warm and cold environments? Again we're considering adding a 100Ah 12V Silicon Dioxide Lead Crystal Battery for $449 that has no problems with cold or warm temps to give us 150+ ah's (110 ah AGMs + 100 ah SiO2). Both will need a charger, so that expense applies to both. The SiO2 uses the same charging routine as lithium.

Yes, we will have to install battery switching to accommodate the two different battery charging profiles, but we already own the ETI supplied GoPower controller plus a Victron 100/20 controller for our portable.

The only advantage I see to lithium is weight. We don't have a weight problem with our 2018, 5.0 TA, even if we add the 60# silicon dioxide battery to our existing pair of AGMs.

The jury isn't even close to being in on the longevity of Battleborns. More than likely the BMS will fail first. We'll know 10 years from now. At that point in time I'll be 81, and with our camper record (15 campers) probably will own a 25' Bigfoot or the new 25' Escape 5th wheel.

Food for thought.

Perry

EDIT: since this will be our first winter with the portable and 45' of cable, we won't purchase anything until we see if we really need more ah storage. Needs vs Wants!

[alanmalk]

Originally Posted by Perryb67

...
If I were living in Tucson or similar areas I sure as hell wouldn't be looking at lithium, with its known degradation in warm environments.

Temperature limitations are another complication that the sellers fail to mention - until after the sale. This includes cold weather problems, too.

[MyronL]

Man, beginning to wish I had those insights before I jumped on the Lithium wagon. Needed new batteries and I jumped onboard. Too late now. Think just getting the MPPT solar upgrade will hold me, unless a cheaper charging solution appears. It's not like we will be on the road again anytime soon.

[alanmalk]

Originally Posted by MyronL

Man, beginning to wish I had those insights before I jumped on the Lithium wagon. Needed new batteries and I jumped onboard. Too late now. Think just getting the MPPT solar upgrade will hold me, unless a cheaper charging solution appears. It's not like we will be on the road again anytime soon.

Don't despair - challenges keep us energized (pardon the pun).
With MPPT, not only will you get a Lithium charging profile, you will squeeze a few more watts out of your solar system.
--
Alan

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by MyronL

I have a 2013 19 with WFCO WF8955 and just replaced the lead batteries with one Battleborn 100ah 12v Life P04 Lithium. Do I need to upgrade that converter charger? Do you sell them?
You8:17 AM

WF-8950L2-MBA.pdf
1.2mb
There is a way to change the the mother board for it to work.
Melisa3:32 PM

This means replacing the converter section of the WFCO power centre with one intended for lithium batteries, or as I mentioned before:

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

To modify your existing Escape with its WF-8955, you can replace the converter section with WFCO's WF-8950L2-MBA, or with converter sections from other manufacturers.

That link is to the WFCO page for the product described in the document that Melisa sent: the Main Board Assembly for charging lithium batteries. The Progressive Dynamics PD4655LIV is one of those converters from other manufacturers. Several Escape owners have similarly replaced their WFCO converter with a PD converter, although usually just for better performance charging lead-acid batteries, not specifically for lithium.

Originally Posted by MyronL

No way to open that pdf file

Not many devices used to read e-mail can't open PDF files, so I think it's understandable that customer service representative would send out information in PDF form... but there's always the exception.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by alanmalk

... In fact, my 100AH Lithium battery came with just such a charger. Simple enough to use in my case because the battery sits in my garage, not my trailer.

The device is rather simple. Puts out one voltage (14.4) and flashes a light at you when its time to stop charging. Provides about 10 amps which would charge a dead Lithium 100 AH battery in 10 hours.

Will it harm the battery if I forget to stop charging? No, because it can only reach 14.4 v which is below the danger level and can not go higher. Plus the current reduces to near 0 at that voltage.

But as others have correctly pointed out, a Lithium battery is not happy sitting at 100% full for long periods.

The WFCO replacement converter section (WF-8950L2 Main Board Assembly) that Melisa and I suggested to Myron addresses that concern: it charges at up to 14.6 V until current drops (which they call "bulk" mode) - with a minimum of one hour and maximum of four hours - then drops to 13.6 V (which they call "absorption" mode, but I think is effectively float, matching their operator manual's functional description).

According to the manual, the WF-8950L2-MBA does allow any adjustment of the charging voltages, so if anyone considers that 14.6 V to be too high, this may not be the ideal choice.