Lithium replacement?

[alanmalk]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

The WFCO replacement converter section (WF-8950L2 Main Board Assembly) that Melisa and I suggested to Myron addresses that concern: it charges at up to 14.6 V until current drops (which they call "bulk" mode) - with a minimum of one hour and maximum of four hours - then drops to 13.6 V (which they call "absorption" mode, but I think is effectively float, matching their operator manual's functional description).

Yes, after the current drops at 14.6 V, the battery is charged and lowering the voltage to 13.6 will result in no additional charging, but will supply power to the trailer.

According to the manual, the WF-8950L2-MBA does allow any adjustment of the charging voltages, so if anyone considers that 14.6 V to be too high, this may not be the ideal choice.

Was that to say doesn't allow any... (?)

--
Alan

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

According to the manual, the WF-8950L2-MBA does allow any adjustment of the charging voltages, so if anyone considers that 14.6 V to be too high, this may not be the ideal choice.

Originally Posted by alanmalk

Was that to say doesn't allow any... (?)

Arrggh ... yes, good catch, this converter does not allow any adjustment.

[UncleTim]

Originally Posted by MyronL

I got this email response from Melissa at Escape. Not very helpful. No way to open that pdf file. Did not answer my question. How do you deal with this baloney? Guessing they have no practical solution for me. (Thanks for nothing Melissa.)


Thanks for chatting!
Here's your chat transcript from https://escapetrailer.com/

Got any questions? I'm happy to help.
8:17 AM

I have a 2013 19 with WFCO WF8955 and just replaced the lead batteries with one Battleborn 100ah 12v Life P04 Lithium. Do I need to upgrade that converter charger? Do you sell them?
You8:17 AM

WF-8950L2-MBA.pdf
1.2mb
There is a way to change the the mother board for it to work.
Melisa3:32 PM

Thank you again for reaching out to Escape Trailer! I am closing the chat for now and would be delighted to hear from you again in the near future.
Melisa3:32 PM

Is this it?


https://wfcoelectronics.com/wp-conte...Ion-Manual.pdf

[TTMartin]

Originally Posted by Perryb67

We have a perfectly good pair of two year old Crown AGM, 220 ah batteries that still register 12.8 two hours after the sun goes down. Our friends have a three year old pair of Lifeline AGM's that only register 12.65 two hours after the sun goes down and he feels they aren't as powerful as when new. He paid an extra $200 for those Lifelines vs our Crowns.

The advantage of Lifeline Batteries is they can take a high in rush current, for fast charging. Not only can they take it, they actually need it. This requirement is not met in most travel trailers. I used Lifeline Batteries in my Sprinter van, because I had two 6 volt batteries, being fed by a 360 second alternator. Most batteries don't want a charge rate higher than 0.5C where Lifelines can take 5.0C or 10 times the in rush current.

[TTMartin]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

According to the manual, the WF-8950L2-MBA does [not] allow any adjustment of the charging voltages, so if anyone considers that 14.6 V to be too high, this may not be the ideal choice.

According to the Battleborn Manual 14.6 V is 'ideal'.

[Perry Butler]

Originally Posted by TTMartin

The advantage of Lifeline Batteries is they can take a high in rush current, for fast charging. Not only can they take it, they actually need it. This requirement is not met in most travel trailers. I used Lifeline Batteries in my Sprinter van, because I had two 6 volt batteries, being fed by a 360 second alternator. Most batteries don't want a charge rate higher than 0.5C where Lifelines can take 5.0C or 10 times the in rush current.

Attachment 50875

So can our Crowns. Our school used Crowns because of their ability to charge quickly, that's another reason we chose Crowns.

Enjoy,

Perry

[TTMartin]

Originally Posted by Perryb67

So can our Crowns. Our school used Crowns because of their ability to charge quickly, that's another reason we chose Crowns.

According to the Crown AGM Deep Cycle Battery technical data sheet I found (that didn't require signing up for their junk mail), the ideal charge rate is 0.25C and maximum charge rate is 0.35C.

[John in Santa Cruz]

Originally Posted by TTMartin

The advantage of Lifeline Batteries is they can take a high in rush current, for fast charging. Not only can they take it, they actually need it. This requirement is not met in most travel trailers. I used Lifeline Batteries in my Sprinter van, because I had two 6 volt batteries, being fed by a 360 second alternator. Most batteries don't want a charge rate higher than 0.5C where Lifelines can take 5.0C or 10 times the in rush current.

Attachment 50875

yikes, 500 amps at 14V would be a 7000 watt charger, that would need 240V 30A power.

[Centex]

Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz

yikes, 500 amps at 14V would be a 7000 watt charger, that would need 240V 30A power.

Or one HECKOVA solar array and system.

[John in Santa Cruz]

Originally Posted by Centex

Or one HECKOVA solar array and system.

heh, lets see, typical 15 watts per sq ft, highest efficiency panel I could find claimed 20.. so 7000 watts / 20 W/sq-ft == 350 sq feet of panels? awwwww, whats that, 10 x 35 feet, or 14 x 25 feet? hah hah. hey, that could run your AC easily!

[Centex]

Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz

heh, lets see, typical 15 watts per sq ft, highest efficiency panel I could find claimed 20.. so 7000 watts / 20 W/sq-ft == 350 sq feet of panels? awwwww, whats that, 10 x 35 feet, or 14 x 25 feet? hah hah. hey, that could run your AC easily!

I'm sold!

[Perry Butler]

Originally Posted by TTMartin

According to the Crown AGM Deep Cycle Battery technical data sheet I found (that didn't require signing up for their junk mail), the ideal charge rate is 0.25C and maximum charge rate is 0.35C.

We bought our AGM's to eliminate off-gassing, not have to check fluid levels, and to have the theoretical very slightly faster ability to charge. Doesn't matter if they're Lifelines or Crowns. Crowns are mainly sold for industrial use.

We camp a few weeks every year with friends who have Lifelines in their Airstream with 300 watts on the roof vs our 170 watts. After comparing real charge and discharge rates the only difference we see is when our angled panels are situated the wrong way, who has more shade, and/or the color of the batteries. We want batteries that work for our intended use, not some theoretical use. I must say, Lifeline does a nice sales/advertising job though. His Lifelines cost 40% more, but in our real world he just got a name.

The older we get the more we spend our money wisely.

Enjoy,

Perry

[elongest]

I'm in the middle of putting a lithium battery in a Casita and may just settle for a AGM battery. The lithium conversions are fairly simple in a motor home or van with the house and vehicle battery fairly close by, but with different tow vehicles and some with and some without smart alternators you get into more issues with your DC to DC chargers.
For non fulltime use IMO lithium is not worth the hassle and expense unless you are looking for an expensive science project. After messing with the project on and off for a couple of weeks I'm going camping next weekend with my old lead acid battery. I'm still undecided if I will continue installing the lithium battery.
Eddie

[alanmalk]

Originally Posted by elongest

...
For non fulltime use IMO lithium is not worth the hassle and expense unless you are looking for an expensive science project.
...

I am conducting one version of that science project. This spring I purchased a 100AH lithium battery for my little pontoon electric powered fishing craft. The immediate benefits are much more power at a flat voltage discharge curve (important when powering a motor) and much lighter weight. I could not carry the equivalent lead-acid battery from the car down the beach to the boat. Even my smaller group 27 AGM (now over 8 years old) was pushing the limit of my ancient disks and vertebrae. So far, it works fabulously, with an estimated 2 full days of fishing between charges.

The problem now is the charging. Easy at home since I have an adjustable Constant Current/Constant Voltage power supply. Set it to 14.4, 10 Amps, then count the number of hours till the current hits zero. That gives me a good idea of how much I used. And I don't charge until the next fishing trip is planned - to eliminate the battery sitting at 100% for weeks.

But what to do on the yet-to-happen 3+ day trip? Charging directly from the alternator won't reach 100% given the 13.8 Volt alternator output. But at the same time it could exceed the recommended amperage charge current at the start of the charge. I doubt either will do enough damage that I would notice - but still, why not avoid it if reasonable to do so?

Some alternative charging schemes - the experiment - include an inverter to power my CC/CV charger. Messy and inefficient. Solar - slow but possible - but no fishing that day. DC-DC converter? Maybe if willing to drain the car battery and then drive around for an hour to recharge. None of the above are ideal. And then there is the cold weather issue. Best fishing is in the fall here in Colorado, but the night time temps frequently fall below 32F.

Its a quandary and I don't have the answers, so the science project goes on...
--
Alan

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by TTMartin

According to the Battleborn Manual 14.6 V is 'ideal'.

Attachment 50879

For LiFePO4 batteries, around 14.6 V may be ideal as the final charging voltage to reach maximum charge (or to support top-balancing), but charging that high is unnecessary, and it's high for some of the trailer's other equipment. Just something to watch for...

[elongest]

Alan
Check this out for your DC charging. https://www.amazon.com/VICTRON-ORION...ct_top?ie=UTF8

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by elongest

Alan
Check this out for your DC charging. https://www.amazon.com/VICTRON-ORION...ct_top?ie=UTF8

That's the device which Myron showed in post #51 and we discussed following that (links in post #59), except that you would probably want the non-isolated series, and the 30-amp rather than 9-amp model. Myron showed this more appropriate model.

[MyronL]

Originally Posted by alanmalk

Here is the essence of that document:
The WFCO WF-8950L2-MBA is an RV power converter replacement main board, optimized to safely charge deep-cycle lithium iron phosphate batteries, while powering the RV's lights and appliances. The WF-8950L2-MBA is a quick, easy replacement part for all WF-8900 Series 35/45/65/75-Amp Power Centers. It installs easily with only two screws, three AC wires, and two DC wires. With no need to re-wire, installation takes only 10 minutes.

Looks to cost around $250 USD.

But perhaps you could consider the simple approach first. That is - do nothing except put your new Lithium in place of your current batteries. You get many of the benefits with one notable exception - that is. The battery will probably not be "full", so you won't be able to pull 100 AH out of it. That's not a problem for the battery.

After using it for a while you can make an informed decision to keep it, add another, or sell it (to a fisherman who needs a nice trolling motor battery.)

--
Alan

Found it on EBay (direct from Elkhart), $158. instead of through a dealer. Will wait for now, but thinking about it.

[MyronL]

My SunSaver MPPT controller came today. Will install in the tongue box a few inches from the Batteborn Lithium battery. Wiring will follow the manual as seen here. (fingers crossed.)

[alanmalk]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

That's the device which Myron showed in post #51 and we discussed following that (links in post #59), except that you would probably want the non-isolated series, and the 30-amp rather than 9-amp model. Myron showed this more appropriate model.

Looks like a number of models to choose from. The particular one mentioned in the quote above appears to have a minimum input voltage of 16V, per the illustration. That might be a problem, but the 30A output sounds nice for fast charging.