Boards Frying From 14 volt Solar Charging?

[Perry Butler]

Too many Maxxfan, furnace, and refrigerator boards are burning out on this and other forums. When I purchased my Maxxfan board late last summer, Maxx fan said the board in my unit eventually burns out because many are submitting 14.6 volts when solar charging. The new board supposedly can handle over 15 volts now.

The more I think about this the more I wonder if those with solar charging at anywhere from 14.2-14.6 are the ones burning their various boards out. Then I think about our fridge that we cannot do without when camping (we carry and have used many times a Martin catalytic heater when our old system was low on ah's remaining). We're on the third week of our three month Arizona/NM/Utah winter trip and don't want to diagnose a ruined refrigerator board. We've already been there twice with batteries in 2019 and 2021.

I don't buy cheap devices, want a device to work as intended, have the discretionary money, so buy Victron electronics. A Victron Orion 12/30 (30 amp) is $226, while the 12/18 is $170. That sounds like a lot of money, unless you don't install and your refrigerator board craps out.

Last summer I rewired our camper. The solar is directly hooked up, with proper fusing, to our batteries, we haven't needed the WFCO charger in a year (both reverse polarity fuses are pulled), and the WFCO is connected to the batteries with a separate wire from the battery. I want to hook the Orion between the batteries and the WFCO.

I know this is just theory. What say you?

Thanks,

Perry

[elongest]

Not trying to be political but it is just how things seem to be. The equipment manufacturers have incentive to upgrade their power circuits to fix this, since they make more money selling replacement circuit boards. Kind of like the Drug companies and cures for chronic diseases. Sorry just had to say it.

[alanmalk]

Originally Posted by Perryb67

...
I know this is just theory. What say you?
...

I say this bothers me too. My brand new lithium's call for 14.4V for charging. At the moment my charging sources (truck, solar, WFCO) can't, or won't, go into 14.4V charging mode. So my lithium's will be under charged by 10 to 20%. No harm in the short term, possible harm in the long term (depending on who you read).

So I am faced with living with 3 possible choices: Under charged batteries, fully charged batteries with possible damage to equipment, or double voltage regulation.

To explain the third choice: Double voltage regulation means to me that after the WFCO DC distribution, a voltage regulator on each DC branch. Specifically, a DC-DC smps (switch mode power supply, similar to the working innards of a MPPT solar controller). This would provide high efficiency but at a steep price point. To refine this a bit more, my options are either pricey US brand name DC-DC converters or ultra cheap Chinese parts.

My jury of one is still out on this...

[elongest]

I have two Battle Born batteries that have be sitting in the shop for about 18M. First it was the converter change for Lithium. Then it was the need for a lithium solar controller. Next it was the need for a DC to DC converter and rewiring your tow vehicle (which one). Now we have figured out the higher voltage is burning up the control boards. Oh, by the way you need more solar capacity, and don't camp north of Florida in the winter. It seems to be never ending. Now well over $2.5K later the Battle Born's are still sitting under the work bench. I am sitting here looking at my new to me trailer and thinking is it worth the effort. The flooded lead acid (FLA) batteries don't seem so bad after all. Buy a couple new FLA's for a few hundred dollars if needed or install this stuff with its still unresolved issues.
Eddie

[tdf-texas]

Let's boil this down to the basics. There are only three Escape devices that are more susceptible to failure at voltages above 13.5 volts.

One: Unless you have the latest version of the Maxxfan control board, it is going to fail sooner or later if exposed to voltages above 13.7 volts. What can you do to prevent this? Either add a buck/boost voltage regulator to the input power or replace the control board with the latest version. Either way, it's not a big deal to fix.
https://www.escapeforum.org/forums/f...tor-14667.html

Two: The Suburban SW6DE ignitor board will fail at some point if exposed to voltages above 13.5 volts. Some ignitor boards have lasted quite a while others have failed quickly when operated at solar controller voltages. What can you do to prevent this? Either add a buck/boost voltage regulator to the input power or replace the control board with a Dinosaur ignitor board that is designed to run at the higher voltages. Either way, it's not a big deal to fix.
https://www.dinosaurelectronics.com/

Three: The Atwood AFSAD12 / Dometic AFSD12 furnace ignitor board will fail at some point if exposed to voltages above 13.5 volts. Again, some ignitor boards have lasted quite a while others have failed quickly when operated at solar controller voltages. What can you do to prevent this? Either add a buck/boost voltage regulator to the input power or replace the control board with a Dinosaur ignitor board that is designed to run at the higher voltages. Either way, it's not a big deal to fix.
https://www.dinosaurelectronics.com/

Do you need to regulate the voltage to the other devices in the Escape? Not really.

• If you have the electric awning Dometic 9500, it is rated to operate at voltages up to 15 volts.
• The Dometic refrigerators are rated to operate at voltages up to 18 volts.
• The RV lighting voltage ratings vary - the 2017-18 Escape lights failed at anything over 12 volts. Later lighting included voltage regulation chips that allow them to operate at higher voltages.
• The rest of the stuff like stereos, etc. are designed for car voltages and are fine.

So, there is no need for an expensive whole trailer voltage regulator as a solution for a few problem devices that were not designed for normal RV use. Granted, I like tech stuff as much as the next engineer but I can't see spending big bucks on a whole trailer voltage regulator when a frugal solution is available.

ps. If that whole trailer voltage regulator fails, instead of one device failing - now you have a whole trailer out of power. Think single points of failure analysis.

[Ooshkaboo]

Originally Posted by elongest

Not trying to be political but it is just how things seem to be. The equipment manufacturers have incentive to upgrade their power circuits to fix this, since they make more money selling replacement circuit boards. Kind of like the Drug companies and cures for chronic diseases. Sorry just had to say it.

I didn’t see anything political about your post, it’s been that way for many years.
But sometimes there are just certain upgrades as technology improves and newer product lines take place of the past ones.

I just picked up my 5.0 last month and many of the headaches people have on here have been corrected. With the good resale value I can see why CPA just trades his in every few years.

[Centex]

Originally Posted by Perryb67

... I know this is just theory. What say you?

Given the very particular way you use your WFCO Power Center (never as a DC Charger / Converter) I think your theory / concept is sound. The Orion-Tr Smart DC-DC Charger Isolated manual specifically describes configuring that unit to the "Power Supply Mode" and that's the only way you would use it.

Never charging your battery from shore power works for you (no worries ) but that's a constraint others might not be willing to accept. IF the WFCO could be internally modified to allow use of the charger output separate from the DC Fuse Panel distribution that'd be much more preferrable, IMO, but I don't know if that's possible.

The above comments on the theory / concept being totally separate from the matter of necessity, value, and failure points which Tom (tdf-texas) covered quite well, IMO.

[Sean Murry]

Originally Posted by tdf-texas

Let's boil this down to the basics. There are only three Escape devices that are more susceptible to failure at voltages above 13.5 volts.

One: Unless you have the latest version of the Maxxfan control board, it is going to fail sooner or later if exposed to voltages above 13.7 volts. What can you do to prevent this? Either add a buck/boost voltage regulator to the input power or replace the control board with the latest version. Either way, it's not a big deal to fix.
https://www.escapeforum.org/forums/f...tor-14667.html

Two: The Suburban SW6DE ignitor board will fail at some point if exposed to voltages above 13.5 volts. Some ignitor boards have lasted quite a while others have failed quickly when operated at solar controller voltages. What can you do to prevent this? Either add a buck/boost voltage regulator to the input power or replace the control board with a Dinosaur ignitor board that is designed to run at the higher voltages. Either way, it's not a big deal to fix.
https://www.dinosaurelectronics.com/

Three: The Atwood AFSAD12 / Dometic AFSD12 furnace ignitor board will fail at some point if exposed to voltages above 13.5 volts. Again, some ignitor boards have lasted quite a while others have failed quickly when operated at solar controller voltages. What can you do to prevent this? Either add a buck/boost voltage regulator to the input power or replace the control board with a Dinosaur ignitor board that is designed to run at the higher voltages. Either way, it's not a big deal to fix.
https://www.dinosaurelectronics.com/

Do you need to regulate the voltage to the other devices in the Escape? Not really.

• If you have the electric awning Dometic 9500, it is rated to operate at voltages up to 15 volts.
• The Dometic refrigerators are rated to operate at voltages up to 18 volts.
• The RV lighting voltage ratings vary - the 2017-18 Escape lights failed at anything over 12 volts. Later lighting included voltage regulation chips that allow them to operate at higher voltages.
• The rest of the stuff like stereos, etc. are designed for car voltages and are fine.

So, there is no need for an expensive whole trailer voltage regulator as a solution for a few problem devices that were not designed for normal RV use. Granted, I like tech stuff as much as the next engineer but I can't see spending big bucks on a whole trailer voltage regulator when a frugal solution is available.

ps. If that whole trailer voltage regulator fails, instead of one device failing - now you have a whole trailer out of power. Think single points of failure analysis.

Of the Dinosaur replacement igniter boards, which is the one that works with the gas only water heater in the Escape?

[Jack!]

Originally Posted by tdf-texas

Let's boil this down to the basics......
......So, there is no need for an expensive whole trailer voltage regulator as a solution for a few problem devices that were not designed for normal RV use.

Perfect timing for this post. We are getting our new 5.0 Thursday if all goes well. Planning some electrical upgrades including BB batts & MPPT Controllers. I have been burning up goggle figuring out what devices need over voltage protection. Already ruled out the MaxxFan, as it's new. Noted your post on the ETI forum about the voltage regulators. They are quite inexpensive, but takes over a month to get them right now. Will also now consider the board upgrades mentioned here.
Overall the info in this post saved me a lot of work.
Thanks for this post!

[Jack!]

Originally Posted by Centex

Never charging your battery from shore power works for you (no worries ) but that's a constraint others might not be willing to accept.

That's true. We plan on more boondocking but still want the option to use shore power, freely. I have been exchanging email all day today with BB tech support about converters. I purchased from BB our BB bats, 2 Victron solar controllers, Lynx distributors, and a PD4655LIV converter in Oct for our new 5.0 electrics upgrade project

Everything I found at that time indicated that this PD converter was far superior to the WHCO converter, so planned on doing that upgrade. Now I'm returning it to BB, as they agree with the post I found below this morning. BB is recommending the WHCO 8955LIS, which I believe is the converter the 2022 trailers are using.
Saves me some work and some bucks. This has been a long learning curve to say the least.

_________________________________________________
From BB tech support today
From: Robbie Heddy
Sent: 2/8/2022
Subject: Inquiry - PD4655LIV - 2022-02-08 04:38:36

Hello,
Ya so that is not a multistage charger so you would have to disconnect from shore every once in a while. A better option is the WFCO 8955LIS, which is a multistage charger. This will solve any shore power limitations charging the batteries, but we do not carry it.
Thank you, Robbie

______________________________________________
Post I found:
Good charger replacement. Charges my lithium batteries much faster than my original WFCO. Main downside is that it is TOO good. That is, it keeps the batteries at 14.6 volts....which is too high over time for Battleborn batteries. Their CEO made a video stating that getting up to 14.6v is great and necessary for balancing -- but that keeping their batteries at that voltage over time (ie, plugged in to shore power with this charger, mentioned by name in the video) for months at a time will degrade Battleborn batteries. He recommends disconnecting from shore power except when you actively need it.

[Centex]

Originally Posted by Jack!

... We plan on more boondocking but still want the option to use shore power, freely. ...

In case not clear, note that in Perry's scheme (both current and proposed) he is able to use shore power for 120VAC outlets and appliances in his trailer at any time; Shore power just can't contribute any role relating to the DC system (charging / converting).

In his current scheme he can restore those functions by simply reinserting the removed fuses. In his proposed scheme he would have to restore the fuses and bypass the Orion 12|12-xx to regain those functions.

[tdf-texas]

Originally Posted by Sean Murry

Of the Dinosaur replacement igniter boards, which is the one that works with the gas only water heater in the Escape?

The electric circuit is separate from the gas part. The Dinosaur UIB S fits. It's operating voltage range is 10-19 volts.

https://dinosaurelectronics.com/UIB_S.htm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ib2RaXekG5Y

You willl probably want to get the "2-Tab Mounting kit for Atwood®/Hydroflame Water Heaters & covers for UIB Series Ignitor boards" at the same time.

https://www.amazon.com/Dinosaur-Elec.../dp/B00DPJ2PB0

[Jack!]

Originally Posted by Centex

In case not clear, note that in Perry's scheme (both current and proposed) he is able to use shore power for 120VAC outlets and appliances in his trailer at any time; Shore power just can't contribute any role relating to the DC system (charging / converting).

In his current scheme he can restore those functions by simply reinserting the removed fuses. In his proposed scheme he would have to restore the fuses and bypass the Orion 12|12-xx to regain those functions.

Understood. My use of "freely" isnt clear. Oops!
As you said, the above works for some for DC overvoltage protection. Also, BB's advice to "disconnect shore from time to time" for Li over-charging works for some.

We are in the group that likes to just plugin shore for as long as we wish, without giving the AC & DC electrics any thought. Needed the Li option because we want the same to a lessor extent while boondocking. It would be excellent to go 4-5 days or longer with only daily bat level checks. That's the dream...

[MVA]

Originally Posted by tdf-texas

Let's boil this down to the basics. There are only three Escape devices that are more susceptible to failure at voltages above 13.5 volts.

One: Unless you have the latest version of the Maxxfan control board, it is going to fail sooner or later if exposed to voltages above 13.7 volts. What can you do to prevent this? Either add a buck/boost voltage regulator to the input power or replace the control board with the latest version. Either way, it's not a big deal to fix.
https://www.escapeforum.org/forums/f...tor-14667.html

Two: The Suburban SW6DE ignitor board will fail at some point if exposed to voltages above 13.5 volts. Some ignitor boards have lasted quite a while others have failed quickly when operated at solar controller voltages. What can you do to prevent this? Either add a buck/boost voltage regulator to the input power or replace the control board with a Dinosaur ignitor board that is designed to run at the higher voltages. Either way, it's not a big deal to fix.
https://www.dinosaurelectronics.com/

Three: The Atwood AFSAD12 / Dometic AFSD12 furnace ignitor board will fail at some point if exposed to voltages above 13.5 volts. Again, some ignitor boards have lasted quite a while others have failed quickly when operated at solar controller voltages. What can you do to prevent this? Either add a buck/boost voltage regulator to the input power or replace the control board with a Dinosaur ignitor board that is designed to run at the higher voltages. Either way, it's not a big deal to fix.
https://www.dinosaurelectronics.com/

Do you need to regulate the voltage to the other devices in the Escape? Not really.

• If you have the electric awning Dometic 9500, it is rated to operate at voltages up to 15 volts.
• The Dometic refrigerators are rated to operate at voltages up to 18 volts.
• The RV lighting voltage ratings vary - the 2017-18 Escape lights failed at anything over 12 volts. Later lighting included voltage regulation chips that allow them to operate at higher voltages.
• The rest of the stuff like stereos, etc. are designed for car voltages and are fine.

So, there is no need for an expensive whole trailer voltage regulator as a solution for a few problem devices that were not designed for normal RV use. Granted, I like tech stuff as much as the next engineer but I can't see spending big bucks on a whole trailer voltage regulator when a frugal solution is available.

ps. If that whole trailer voltage regulator fails, instead of one device failing - now you have a whole trailer out of power. Think single points of failure analysis.

TDF

I saw your post where you installed a voltage regulator on the MaxxFan. What did you do concerning the water heater and the furnace control boards? Did you regulate the voltage on those appliances or change-out the control boards when they failed?

thanks

[tdf-texas]

Originally Posted by MVA

TDF

I saw your post where you installed a voltage regulator on the MaxxFan. What did you do concerning the water heater and the furnace control boards? Did you regulate the voltage on those appliances or change-out the control boards when they failed?

thanks

I bought a half dozen of the voltage regulators back when they were $10 ea. I installed them on both the furnace and the hot water heater at the same time I did the Maxxfan. That was three years ago and they are still working fine.

But... Everytime I look at the UIB S for the Suburban SW6DE, it makes me want to install one.

[scubarx]

Originally Posted by elongest

...Kind of like the Drug companies and cures for chronic diseases. Sorry just had to say it.

Chronic diseases, by definition, cannot be cured, so I'm missing the point you were attempting to make.

[gbaglo]

Originally Posted by elongest

Not trying to be political but it is just how things seem to be. The equipment manufacturers have incentive to upgrade their power circuits to fix this, since they make more money selling replacement circuit boards. Kind of like the Drug companies and cures for chronic diseases. Sorry just had to say it.

Actually, none of this makes sense. Did you mean "have NO incentive"?

[Perry Butler]

First I want to say "Thank You" to tdf-texas and Centex for understanding what I want to do and express their positive opinions!

After leaving Organ Pipe this morning I called Northern Arizona Wind & Power and explained the situation. I didn't keep track of names. The first person had a complete understanding about charging at 14.6 and worrying about eventual board failure. After briefly looking at the manual he said the Smart Orion 12/30 can be used as a regulated power supply. He felt I should use the 12/12-30a (12v 30 amp) to provide up to 30 amps at a time. Thirty amps would give plenty of head room for our limited use.

I then read tdf-texas 1st post and realized I was on the track I want to go. A half hour later I again called Northern Arizona Wind & Power and spoke to a second rep. He agreed with the first and has also heard about the increase in the number of board failures and wondered if it was due to the massive increase in lithium battery users over the past two years.

We then arrived at Gilbert Ray CG near Tucson and I read Centex's posts and saw he also understood our particular situation. Plus, I read tdf-texas' last post. I then called Northern Arizona Wind & Power, talked to another very knowledgeable sales person and ordered a Victron Orion TR Smart 12/12-30a DC-DC Charger that can also be used as a regulated power supply for $226, a Bussman 50a fuse with switch and some 8 awg wire, and ring terminals.

While it would be cheaper for me to buy a bunch of boot/buck devices I just want a single unit installed that will protect all our boards. I already have planned how to quickly switch back if my single Victron DC-DC regulated power supply fails.

Last fall I installed a Blue Seas dual battery disconnect in the reversed position (Out 1 to the WFCO and Out 2 to the inverter, with a both setting), a T250 fuse 7" from the battery, and a 1,500 watt inverter for toast. The WFCO is on a separate line connected to the batteries from the solar controllers and inverter. The schematic below does not show the Victron DC-DC regulated power supply, that will be located between Out 1 and the WFCO.

I see now I'm missing the 8 awg wire from the WFCO to the frame ground. When I get home I'll add that wire and the Victron regulated power supply.

I will be removing the ETI breaker (that's not shown in the schematic) and installing a 50 amp Bussman switched breaker between the batteries and the Victron DC-DC regulated power supply.

I'm not claiming everyone should do this, but since we boondock as much as possible don't want to have to worry about any more boards failing, especially the furnace and refrigerator, from our charging our SiO2 batteries at 14.6 volts and higher in cold temperatures with temperature compensation running (whew! That's a long sentence!). I've seen as high as 14.85v at 10 F.

I'll let people know if any of our boards fail in the future. However, they can also fail from age and/or fatigue.

Enjoy,

Perry

[Jack!]

Originally Posted by Perryb67

Victron DC-DC regulated power supply, that will be located between Out 1 and the WFCO

Getting our 5.0 Thursday so can start figuring out how the Orion DC2DC charger works. Just know it sits next to the landing gear switches and handles juice from the truck to the batteries. I believe it steps up that voltage.

Interesting to use one for DC over-voltage protection. In this case the Orion steps down to 12 volts, power from the batts/solar to the WHCO. Do I have the right?
Definitely would like to learn how this solution works out for you. I'm returning the PD4655LIV I have, but could swap it for a second Orion which seems more reliable in this case and a single spot solution which I like.
Will it allow 13.6/14.6 voltages go from the WHCO to the batteries, unchanged?
Thanks!

[Centex]

Originally Posted by Jack!

.... Will it allow 13.6/14.6 voltages go from the WHCO to the batteries, unchanged?

I think the answer to that is "No". Please review post #7 with diagrams and later.

By design the Orion-Tr Smart DC-DC Charger Isolated prevents any current on the output side (the 'WFCO side' in this application) from passing to the input side (the 'battery side' in this application). This design characteristic (the DC2DC unit acting as a '1-way gate') is to prevent depletion of a battery on the 'output side' when the battery on the 'input side' is at a lower state of charge in its 'typical' application.

This is the essence of the repeated point in this thread that, as implemented by Perry, this 'regulator solution' precludes charging the trailer battery from the 'WFCO' (a constraint Perry is willing to accept in his particular case).

(FYI the company that makes the power centers, and therefore the common shorthand name, is WFCO Electronics, not WHCO)