2021 F-150 Hybrid

[steve dunham]

Originally Posted by kavm

There are a couple of tow vehicle threads active but my question / comment relates to 2021 F150. These trucks are yet in the dealer lots. We will be collecting more information and test driving before buying / placing order in December / January as we only absolutely require it for our 5.0 in May end. I share my thoughts and confusions below in case someone else is also trying to buy this model

We could get a much better price on a 2020 model. However, the reason we plan to go for the 2021 model is the new PowerBoost (PB) hybrid engine, which allows one to add a 7.5kW generator as an option. With that set up - there are mainly two areas that we need more research and feedback.

• PB Hybrid compatibility with 5th wheel hitch rails/gooseneck: For towing our 5.0, we need a 5th wheel hitch (Anderson Ultimate). From my limited understanding, both rail and gooseneck mounts require installation of underbody brackets. Whether these underbody brackets are compatible / possible with the PB engine setup is not crystal clear. While it is likely that I am inventing a concern here, this engine features additional components that go up to the real axle and areas possibly overlapping these brackets. It is also noteworthy that while the 2020 and earlier F150 material from Ford provides includes discussion of 5th wheel towing, the 2021 material released so far does not address it, and it has been hard to get a definitive answer on this point.
• The payload: Turns out that while the PB is more powerful, it is also heavier due to the additional batteries. So, its payload numbers are on less than some of the other engines. And, our desire is for a higher end trim (Limited) and options (some non-negotiable like FX4 and others nice to have like retractable cover) - which will further reduce the payload.
  
  Since the trucks are not in the dealer lots yet and we have not been able to see it yet, I do not have the payload and other numbers. More importantly, I am unclear on what is an acceptable payload number. Trying to work that out -
  • Escape 5.0 tongue weight - 700 lbs
  • Vehicle occupants (2) - 275 lbs
  • Luggage weight in the truck - 200 lbs (we aren't pack rats and don't expect to travel with the kitchen sink )
  So, I estimate that 1200 lbs is the minimum payload we need. Does that seem about right?
  
  I am unclear how to think about it. The occupants are, obviously, sitting in the front/middle of the truck. So, their weight is spread between front and rear axle whereas the weight of the camper tongue is directly on the rear axle. So, does one look at the the front and rear axle ratings and estimate the weights on them? At the same time, everyone seems at the (unified) payload number. So, a bit confused about the right way to think about it.

Would love some advice / feedback.

Don’t forget the weight of the 5th wheel hitch comes out of your payload
From my observation 700 lbs is on the low end for pin weight
I would look for a vehicle with a minimum payload capacity of 1500 to 1600 lbs

[Ronn]

Originally Posted by kavm

Since the trucks are not in the dealer lots yet and we have not been able to see it yet, I do not have the payload and other numbers. More importantly, I am unclear on what is an acceptable payload number. Trying to work that out -

• Escape 5.0 tongue weight - 700 lbs
• Vehicle occupants (2) - 275 lbs
• Luggage weight in the truck - 200 lbs (we aren't pack rats and don't expect to travel with the kitchen sink )

So, I estimate that 1200 lbs is the minimum payload we need. Does that seem about right?

Would love some advice / feedback.

Hi Kavindra. After researching the forum when I went shopping for my truck I set my minimum payload at 1500 lbs.

I bought one with 1733 lbs. and I am glad I did, if I were buying again I'd be looking for at least 100 lbs more.

My F-150 Lariat weighs 5080 lbs, that includes the rail mounted Andersen Ultimate hitch (it is around 65 lbs plus the rails)

My payload is 1733 lbs
My Pin Weight is 806 lbs (full fresh, other tanks empty)
I am carrying around 500 lbs in the bed of the truck.

Hitch and rails 100 Lbs,
gear in bed of truck 500 lbs estimate / gear was 433 lbs the first time I weighed it.
Total 1406 lbs.

Now add passenger (I believe driver is already included in the payload number).

We do carry quite a bit in the bed of the truck, but I am not so sure it is that much more than most others are carrying.

[camp4528]

Just a note that the official poop (just read the toilet liner thread) for a given vehicle is the Tire and Loading information sticker. That states the weight allowed for Occupants and Cargo, so the driver has to be included in the payload number. I think the weight of a full gas tank and other fluids does not count in the payload limit. They are “free”.

.

[steve dunham]

There is no allowance for driver in stated payload limit

[Ronn]

Originally Posted by camp4528

Just a note that the official poop (just read the toilet liner thread) for a given vehicle is the Tire and Loading information sticker. That states the weight allowed for Occupants and Cargo, so the driver has to be included in the payload number. I think the weight of a full gas tank and other fluids does not count in the payload limit. They are “free”.

.

Originally Posted by steve dunham

There is no allowance for driver in stated payload limit

Not sure how that works, but my understanding is GVWR minus Vehicles Weight equals Payload.

My GVWR is 6800 lbs -
My Vehicle Weighed in at 5080 lbs - this included full fuel, Andersen Ultimate, Rail Mount and a roll up Tonneau Cover.
6800-5080=1720 payload

[kavm]

Thank you so much for this info. We are obviously quite interested in the highest payload rating. The trim/configuration has the nominal payload of 1810, per Ford information. But, the options we are hoping for will eat into that. We will try to get as good an estimate as we can, and trade off some options for payload if needed.

• I already included driver and passenger in my calculations, who are thankfully not heavy. And, I was including the clothing, footwear and my hat in the 275 lbs estimate across the two of us Any further passengers would have to go on a diet
• I got the trailer tongue weight from the Excel spreadsheet on this forum, generously maintained by Vermilye. I will add more to that.
• I has not planned / estimated 500 lbs in the truck bed. I am kind of doubtful if we will come anywhere close to that.
• I will add another 100 lbs for hitch and rails.

We will try for 1500 lbs as the min payload target, as Ronn kindly shared. There are options we can drop easily (like 90 lbs for the retractable cover). But, if we need much more, it might force us to say goodbye to the PowerBoost hybrid engine and the (higher capacity) generator option. Would like to avoid that if we can.

The reason I was talking about front and rear axle ratings was that the Powerboost engine is powerful enough (3.5 EB + electric motor with 430 horsepower and 570 lb-ft of torque). The role of payload, however, is not to pull but to make sure that the front of the truck has sufficient weight to maintain traction in all conditions. That's why my thought was that weight further forward in the truck (e.g. driver/passenger) has a lesser payload impact than that at or behind the rear axle. That made me wonder why it is treated as a single number. I mainly stated it to make sure my reasoning is sound.

[Centex]

Originally Posted by kavm

[2021 F150 PB Hybrid] .... Would love some advice / feedback.

Sounds to me like you're 'stuck' until Ford makes more info available about the new hybrid F150 PB configuration options. I'd establish a relationship with a Ford Dealer and specific sales person, explicitly describing your interests and requesting that they keep you posted as more becomes available to them about configuring / ordering the hybrid.

If there's a Ford Dealer with a commercial / truck sales department distinct from 'consumer sales' as there is in my area, I'd be heading there. I would not expect the type of info you need (payload and various weight/axle ratings per a specific as-built / as-optioned configuration) to be readily available on 'public marketing' Ford websites in the immediate future, whereas the configuration / ordering tools available to Dealers may be more timely and forthcoming with that sort of information.

Insofar as the fitment of aftermarket hitch systems (rail or gooseneck assemblies that fit between the frame and the bed with attachment to the frame) IMO you're in essentially the same boat. To wit: until manufacturers of such kits make their application-specific data known for that new variation of the F150, you'll not know for certain what you're dealing with. The devil is in the details of what's happening in the area of that under-bed installation and IMO you're prudent to recognize that may differ on the hybrid PB compared to the latest current non-PB F150's. You might gain insight if you're able to connect with 'the right person' within a company like B&W who manufactures such kits.

Good luck, being an 'early adopter' of new vehicles can be 'interesting' and 'challenging' sometimes.

[Ronn]

Originally Posted by kavm

That's why my thought was that weight further forward in the truck (e.g. driver/passenger) has a lesser payload impact than that at or behind the rear axle. That made me wonder why it is treated as a single number. I mainly stated it to make sure my reasoning is sound.

I believe what may be missing here is you also have a GAWR (Gross Axle Weight Rating).

My Steer Axle's GAWR is 3225 lbs - (loaded) I am 2780
My Drive Axle's GAWR is 3800 lbs - (loaded) I am 3480

I stated earlier that my cargo was around 500 lbs, but I believe these updated numbers works out to 380 lbs of cargo (I guess some of the items in my first figures (loaded going to Chilliwack to pickup trailer) ended up in the trailer.

Loaded front axle of 3480 plus the loaded rear axle of 2780 totals 6266 lbs
My 6800 GVWR minus the 6266 lbs leaves 534 lbs for passengers and more cargo.

So if my figuring is right, My minimum payload if passengers are 334 lbs would be 1533 LBS

[thunderworks]

Does anyone know if the weight of a full tank of gas uses available payload numbers or is that presumed to be part of the base vehicle weight?

TIA

[padlin]

Ford's website I looked at shows it includes a 150 lb driver but has nothing about the gas.

[Centex]

Originally Posted by thunderworks

Does anyone know if the weight of a full tank of gas uses available payload numbers or is that presumed to be part of the base vehicle weight?

'Payload', which is expressed as "The combined weight of occupants and cargo should never exceed XXX kilograms or XXX pounds" on the door-frame sticker, is in addition to the vehicle "Curb weight".

"Curb weight means the weight of a motor vehicle with standard equipment including the maximum capacity of fuel, oil, and coolant, and, if so equipped, air conditioning and additional weight optional engine."[bolding added by me]

So, you do not reduce the sticker 'payload' number by the weight of a full tank of gas (fuel), it's already considered in the rating.

This is all dictated, in typically convoluted regulatory language, by 49 CFR § 571.110, from which the text in quotes above is excerpted.

These labeling requirements are uniform for all vehicle manufacturers for vehicles with a GVWR of 10,000 pounds or less sold in the US and it's safe to say the Canadian requirements substantively coincide with the US requirements.

Hope that helps.

[kavm]

Originally Posted by Centex

Sounds to me like you're 'stuck' until Ford makes more info available about the new hybrid F150 PB configuration options. I'd establish a relationship with a Ford Dealer and specific sales person, explicitly describing your interests and requesting that they keep you posted as more becomes available to them about configuring / ordering the hybrid.

If there's a Ford Dealer with a commercial / truck sales department distinct from 'consumer sales' as there is in my area, I'd be heading there. I would not expect the type of info you need (payload and various weight/axle ratings per a specific as-built / as-optioned configuration) to be readily available on 'public marketing' Ford websites in the immediate future, whereas the configuration / ordering tools available to Dealers may be more timely and forthcoming with that sort of information.

Insofar as the fitment of aftermarket hitch systems (rail or gooseneck assemblies that fit between the frame and the bed with attachment to the frame) IMO you're in essentially the same boat. To wit: until manufacturers of such kits make their application-specific data known for that new variation of the F150, you'll not know for certain what you're dealing with. The devil is in the details of what's happening in the area of that under-bed installation and IMO you're prudent to recognize that may differ on the hybrid PB compared to the latest current non-PB F150's. You might gain insight if you're able to connect with 'the right person' within a company like B&W who manufactures such kits.

Good luck, being an 'early adopter' of new vehicles can be 'interesting' and 'challenging' sometimes.

Thank you very much, Centex! Very helpful advice. I will indeed reach out to a Ford dealer in the area to try to establish a dialog and relationship.

I tried to get any insight from Anderson (having read a lot about the Anderson ultimate hitch a lot on this forum). What I got back was the usual content free marketing type answer which did not inspire any confidence. Perhaps your suggestion of B/W will be more productive.

Thanks again for very constructive advice!

[kavm]

Originally Posted by Ronn

I believe what may be missing here is you also have a GAWR (Gross Axle Weight Rating).

My Steer Axle's GAWR is 3225 lbs - (loaded) I am 2780
My Drive Axle's GAWR is 3800 lbs - (loaded) I am 3480

I stated earlier that my cargo was around 500 lbs, but I believe these updated numbers works out to 380 lbs of cargo (I guess some of the items in my first figures (loaded going to Chilliwack to pickup trailer) ended up in the trailer.

Loaded front axle of 3480 plus the loaded rear axle of 2780 totals 6266 lbs
My 6800 GVWR minus the 6266 lbs leaves 534 lbs for passengers and more cargo.

So if my figuring is right, My minimum payload if passengers are 334 lbs would be 1533 LBS

Hello Ronn - Thank you very much! I put your numbers in a spreadsheet and understood the logic (including the minor error of 6 lbs ) It is very helpful.

I will state what I deduced from it below - to see if I understood correctly:

Rated LBS, Actual LBS, Unused LBS
Front Axle GAWR, 3225, 2780, 445
Rear Axle GAWR, 3800, 3480, 320
GVWR, 6800, 6260, 540

• Max additional load you can add is 540 lbs. There is greater unused load rating on your front axle (445 lbs) compared to the rear axle (320 lbs).
• You cannot add 540 lbs to the rear of your truck bed/axle - as you have a total of 320 unused lbs capacity on that axle.
• To utilize the 540 lbs remaining, you need add them with weight distribution that is skewed to to the front of your cab. Obviously, driver and front passengers are an example of that.

This axle rating and based logic makes sense to me. That's what I was trying to get at. Thanks a lot for setting me on the right path here!

[Centex]

Originally Posted by kavm

...
I tried to get any insight from Anderson (having read a lot about the Anderson ultimate hitch a lot on this forum). What I got back was the usual content free marketing type answer which did not inspire any confidence. Perhaps your suggestion of B/W will be more productive.

Andersen does not make or sell any of the 'underbed' components (rail or gooseneck kits) required to install their hitch, whereas B&W is one of the many manufacturers that does.

Good luck getting to the 'right person' who may be able to offer info about their plans regarding equipment for the yet-to-be-released F150PB.

[kavm]

Originally Posted by Centex

Andersen does not make or sell any of the 'underbed' components (rail or gooseneck kits) required to install their hitch, whereas B&W is one of the many manufacturers that does.

Good luck getting to the 'right person' who may be able to offer info about their plans regarding equipment for the yet-to-be-released F150PB.

Thank you very much for clarifying that. I had not understood that until your post!

[Centex]

Originally Posted by kavm

Thank you very much for clarifying that. I had not understood that until your post!

Yep, ya gotta get the vehicle-specific rail or gooseneck kit* from another source to then be able to install the 'generic' (non-vehicle-specific) Andersen hitch on that in the bed.

*Or have a custom rail or gooseneck installation made for your vehicle.

[Ronn]

Originally Posted by kavm

Rated LBS, Actual LBS, Unused LBS
Front Axle GAWR, 3225, 2780, 445
Rear Axle GAWR, 3800, 3480, 320
GVWR, 6800, 6260, 540

• Max additional load you can add is 540 lbs. There is greater unused load rating on your front axle (445 lbs) compared to the rear axle (320 lbs).
• You cannot add 540 lbs to the rear of your truck bed/axle - as you have a total of 320 unused lbs capacity on that axle.
• To utilize the 540 lbs remaining, you need add them with weight distribution that is skewed to to the front of your cab. Obviously, driver and front passengers are an example of that.I guess the things in the back seat would distribute their weight between the axles as well

This axle rating and based logic makes sense to me. That's what I was trying to get at.

This is very succinct Kavindra, I think you worked this out very well.

[kavm]

Originally Posted by Ronn

This is very succinct Kavindra, I think you worked this out very well.

Thanks a lot! This was very helpful exercise!

Also, sent query to B&W per Centex's kind advice. Let's see if I get a serious response... Will share here if I do.

[thunderworks]

Originally Posted by Centex

'Payload', which is expressed as "The combined weight of occupants and cargo should never exceed XXX kilograms or XXX pounds" on the door-frame sticker, is in addition to the vehicle "Curb weight".

"Curb weight means the weight of a motor vehicle with standard equipment including the maximum capacity of fuel, oil, and coolant, and, if so equipped, air conditioning and additional weight optional engine."[bolding added by me]

So, you do not reduce the sticker 'payload' number by the weight of a full tank of gas (fuel), it's already considered in the rating.

This is all dictated, in typically convoluted regulatory language, by 49 CFR § 571.110, from which the text in quotes above is excerpted.

These labeling requirements are uniform for all vehicle manufacturers for vehicles with a GVWR of 10,000 pounds or less sold in the US and it's safe to say the Canadian requirements substantively coincide with the US requirements.

Hope that helps.

Thanks for that clarification. Much appreciated.

R.

[kavm]

For information - here is the response I got from on a B&W support ticket I created on advice from Centex -

"... at this time we don't have any information on the 2021 F150 with the new PowerBoost engine. We have not been able to bring one in house to verify any fitment on those. Unfortunately I don't have a time line of when we are going to be able to either verify fitment or get a truck here in house to verify."

In a subsequent exchange, the B&W person said that they would have more information on it soon in the coming weeks but did not have a timeline for it. I will be following up in another 4-6 weeks with them - as I am definitely not buying the truck without a confirmed yes on this.